Intuitive reasoning that a function can't exist












10












$begingroup$


Sorry for the title; I had no idea how to make it concise yet informative.



I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.



Here is the statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.




I appreciate any help!










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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    8 hours ago






  • 11




    $begingroup$
    @Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – SvanN
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @SvanN, indeed.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    6 hours ago
















10












$begingroup$


Sorry for the title; I had no idea how to make it concise yet informative.



I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.



Here is the statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.




I appreciate any help!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    8 hours ago






  • 11




    $begingroup$
    @Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – SvanN
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @SvanN, indeed.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    6 hours ago














10












10








10


2



$begingroup$


Sorry for the title; I had no idea how to make it concise yet informative.



I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.



Here is the statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.




I appreciate any help!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Sorry for the title; I had no idea how to make it concise yet informative.



I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.



Here is the statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.




I appreciate any help!







real-analysis functions






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share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 8 hours ago









SvanN

1,9921422




1,9921422










asked 8 hours ago









Math-funMath-fun

7,0581426




7,0581426








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    8 hours ago






  • 11




    $begingroup$
    @Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – SvanN
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @SvanN, indeed.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    6 hours ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    8 hours ago






  • 11




    $begingroup$
    @Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – SvanN
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @SvanN, indeed.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    6 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
8 hours ago




11




11




$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
@SvanN, indeed.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
@SvanN, indeed.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
6 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















25












$begingroup$

I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago



















4












$begingroup$

As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago



















4












$begingroup$

Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago











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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









25












$begingroup$

I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago
















25












$begingroup$

I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago














25












25








25





$begingroup$

I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited 7 hours ago

























answered 8 hours ago









HenryHenry

99k477164




99k477164








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago








2




2




$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
5 hours ago











4












$begingroup$

As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago
















4












$begingroup$

As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago














4












4








4





$begingroup$

As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$







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answered 6 hours ago









Will JagyWill Jagy

102k5101199




102k5101199












  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago
















$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
5 hours ago











4












$begingroup$

Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago
















4












$begingroup$

Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago














4












4








4





$begingroup$

Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 6 hours ago









Michael SeifertMichael Seifert

4,797624




4,797624












  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    5 hours ago
















$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
5 hours ago


















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