How acceptable is it to openly compare team member performances












28















I had this manager that frequently brought up how team members performed compared to each other during one-on-ones or performance reviews. E.g. "A could do this task in half an hour you took three hours on" or "I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already."



Now the tone on the examples aside how acceptable is it to bring up other team members while discussing performance?










share|improve this question


















  • 7





    Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.

    – Nelson
    6 hours ago








  • 18





    I had - I like that part :)

    – wscourge
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    "We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".

    – Abigail
    3 hours ago











  • At GE they simply fired the bottom 10% of employees every 12 months, leading to the "GE decade" under Jack Welch. We're not talking 5 year olds in school ("don't compare Jimmy to Jackie!"), it's a business. Of course by all means if the boss in question is "rude" - just tell them Bye and leave. But it's totally normal, conceptually, to "compare employees" - how else do you get rid of the worst ones??

    – Fattie
    1 hour ago











  • @Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked

    – Victor S
    1 hour ago
















28















I had this manager that frequently brought up how team members performed compared to each other during one-on-ones or performance reviews. E.g. "A could do this task in half an hour you took three hours on" or "I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already."



Now the tone on the examples aside how acceptable is it to bring up other team members while discussing performance?










share|improve this question


















  • 7





    Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.

    – Nelson
    6 hours ago








  • 18





    I had - I like that part :)

    – wscourge
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    "We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".

    – Abigail
    3 hours ago











  • At GE they simply fired the bottom 10% of employees every 12 months, leading to the "GE decade" under Jack Welch. We're not talking 5 year olds in school ("don't compare Jimmy to Jackie!"), it's a business. Of course by all means if the boss in question is "rude" - just tell them Bye and leave. But it's totally normal, conceptually, to "compare employees" - how else do you get rid of the worst ones??

    – Fattie
    1 hour ago











  • @Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked

    – Victor S
    1 hour ago














28












28








28


2






I had this manager that frequently brought up how team members performed compared to each other during one-on-ones or performance reviews. E.g. "A could do this task in half an hour you took three hours on" or "I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already."



Now the tone on the examples aside how acceptable is it to bring up other team members while discussing performance?










share|improve this question














I had this manager that frequently brought up how team members performed compared to each other during one-on-ones or performance reviews. E.g. "A could do this task in half an hour you took three hours on" or "I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already."



Now the tone on the examples aside how acceptable is it to bring up other team members while discussing performance?







management team






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 13 hours ago









Victor SVictor S

3,379629




3,379629








  • 7





    Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.

    – Nelson
    6 hours ago








  • 18





    I had - I like that part :)

    – wscourge
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    "We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".

    – Abigail
    3 hours ago











  • At GE they simply fired the bottom 10% of employees every 12 months, leading to the "GE decade" under Jack Welch. We're not talking 5 year olds in school ("don't compare Jimmy to Jackie!"), it's a business. Of course by all means if the boss in question is "rude" - just tell them Bye and leave. But it's totally normal, conceptually, to "compare employees" - how else do you get rid of the worst ones??

    – Fattie
    1 hour ago











  • @Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked

    – Victor S
    1 hour ago














  • 7





    Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.

    – Nelson
    6 hours ago








  • 18





    I had - I like that part :)

    – wscourge
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    "We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".

    – Abigail
    3 hours ago











  • At GE they simply fired the bottom 10% of employees every 12 months, leading to the "GE decade" under Jack Welch. We're not talking 5 year olds in school ("don't compare Jimmy to Jackie!"), it's a business. Of course by all means if the boss in question is "rude" - just tell them Bye and leave. But it's totally normal, conceptually, to "compare employees" - how else do you get rid of the worst ones??

    – Fattie
    1 hour ago











  • @Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked

    – Victor S
    1 hour ago








7




7





Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.

– Nelson
6 hours ago







Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.

– Nelson
6 hours ago






18




18





I had - I like that part :)

– wscourge
6 hours ago





I had - I like that part :)

– wscourge
6 hours ago




2




2





"We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".

– Abigail
3 hours ago





"We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".

– Abigail
3 hours ago













At GE they simply fired the bottom 10% of employees every 12 months, leading to the "GE decade" under Jack Welch. We're not talking 5 year olds in school ("don't compare Jimmy to Jackie!"), it's a business. Of course by all means if the boss in question is "rude" - just tell them Bye and leave. But it's totally normal, conceptually, to "compare employees" - how else do you get rid of the worst ones??

– Fattie
1 hour ago





At GE they simply fired the bottom 10% of employees every 12 months, leading to the "GE decade" under Jack Welch. We're not talking 5 year olds in school ("don't compare Jimmy to Jackie!"), it's a business. Of course by all means if the boss in question is "rude" - just tell them Bye and leave. But it's totally normal, conceptually, to "compare employees" - how else do you get rid of the worst ones??

– Fattie
1 hour ago













@Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked

– Victor S
1 hour ago





@Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked

– Victor S
1 hour ago










7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes


















49














It's not. If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.



It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.



Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.






share|improve this answer





















  • 2





    Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)

    – O. R. Mapper
    6 hours ago






  • 10





    @O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.

    – Nelson
    6 hours ago













  • @Nelson: I do not doubt it creates a toxic environment (as also pointed out in solarflare's answer) and all kinds of undesired side-effects. I just wonder whether exactly that (the risk of damaging productivity by internal conflicts) wouldn't be the reasoning against explicitly comparing employees' performance, rather than a desire to give everyone a chance irrespective of how well they perform in a global comparison.

    – O. R. Mapper
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.

    – JTPenguin
    1 hour ago



















26














This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.



I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.






share|improve this answer



















  • 30





    Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!

    – jpatokal
    10 hours ago











  • Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.

    – solarflare
    9 hours ago






  • 2





    Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.

    – Chris
    6 hours ago











  • @jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.

    – vlaz
    5 hours ago











  • @vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    2 hours ago



















9














There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.



Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.



Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.



Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.



However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.



Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.






share|improve this answer





















  • 5





    Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.

    – gnasher729
    4 hours ago






  • 6





    @gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.

    – Paul D. Waite
    4 hours ago



















5














I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.



Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?



My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.



On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.



I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.






share|improve this answer


























  • I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....

    – user3067860
    50 mins ago











  • @user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.

    – Mefitico
    9 mins ago



















2














It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.



But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.






share|improve this answer































    2














    While comparing the performance of your "underlings" is a completely natural part of managing a team, doing it out loud is not. This is a toxic behaviour likely to have a horrible effect on morale, with no tangible benefits to boot.



    So one developer is faster at a task than another; publicly shaming the latter is not going to magically increase their aptitude, it is only going to make them feel like cr@p and resent not only you but possibly also the faster coworker. You've just embarrassed them in front of everybody. And for what?



    The two of them almost certainly already know who is the faster at certain tasks. The slower one does not need this to be loudly pointed out to everybody.



    Do not do this!



    Use tact. If you must question why someone took a long time on a task, do so by asking how it could have been achieved faster, and/or quietly decide to yourself that you will assign that category of task to the faster person next time. But public shaming, deliberate or not, is out.






    share|improve this answer
























    • Just realised we're on Workplace so they may not be developers. Well, still generally applies :)

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      1 hour ago











    • I think this still applies across most fields. Would publicly shaming one accountant or a bank teller or truck driver for not being as good as their colleagues be any better?

      – vlaz
      51 mins ago











    • @vlaz: Exactly.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      37 mins ago



















    -4














    The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.



    The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.
















    • 4





      They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      2 hours ago








    • 1





      @LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.

      – vlaz
      52 mins ago











    • @vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      36 mins ago













    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "423"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: false,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworkplace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f126392%2fhow-acceptable-is-it-to-openly-compare-team-member-performances%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown




















    StackExchange.ready(function () {
    $("#show-editor-button input, #show-editor-button button").click(function () {
    var showEditor = function() {
    $("#show-editor-button").hide();
    $("#post-form").removeClass("dno");
    StackExchange.editor.finallyInit();
    };

    var useFancy = $(this).data('confirm-use-fancy');
    if(useFancy == 'True') {
    var popupTitle = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-title');
    var popupBody = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-body');
    var popupAccept = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-accept-button');

    $(this).loadPopup({
    url: '/post/self-answer-popup',
    loaded: function(popup) {
    var pTitle = $(popup).find('h2');
    var pBody = $(popup).find('.popup-body');
    var pSubmit = $(popup).find('.popup-submit');

    pTitle.text(popupTitle);
    pBody.html(popupBody);
    pSubmit.val(popupAccept).click(showEditor);
    }
    })
    } else{
    var confirmText = $(this).data('confirm-text');
    if (confirmText ? confirm(confirmText) : true) {
    showEditor();
    }
    }
    });
    });






    7 Answers
    7






    active

    oldest

    votes








    7 Answers
    7






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    49














    It's not. If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.



    It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.



    Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 2





      Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)

      – O. R. Mapper
      6 hours ago






    • 10





      @O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.

      – Nelson
      6 hours ago













    • @Nelson: I do not doubt it creates a toxic environment (as also pointed out in solarflare's answer) and all kinds of undesired side-effects. I just wonder whether exactly that (the risk of damaging productivity by internal conflicts) wouldn't be the reasoning against explicitly comparing employees' performance, rather than a desire to give everyone a chance irrespective of how well they perform in a global comparison.

      – O. R. Mapper
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.

      – JTPenguin
      1 hour ago
















    49














    It's not. If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.



    It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.



    Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 2





      Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)

      – O. R. Mapper
      6 hours ago






    • 10





      @O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.

      – Nelson
      6 hours ago













    • @Nelson: I do not doubt it creates a toxic environment (as also pointed out in solarflare's answer) and all kinds of undesired side-effects. I just wonder whether exactly that (the risk of damaging productivity by internal conflicts) wouldn't be the reasoning against explicitly comparing employees' performance, rather than a desire to give everyone a chance irrespective of how well they perform in a global comparison.

      – O. R. Mapper
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.

      – JTPenguin
      1 hour ago














    49












    49








    49







    It's not. If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.



    It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.



    Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.






    share|improve this answer















    It's not. If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.



    It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.



    Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 12 hours ago

























    answered 12 hours ago









    bruglescobruglesco

    1,925527




    1,925527








    • 2





      Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)

      – O. R. Mapper
      6 hours ago






    • 10





      @O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.

      – Nelson
      6 hours ago













    • @Nelson: I do not doubt it creates a toxic environment (as also pointed out in solarflare's answer) and all kinds of undesired side-effects. I just wonder whether exactly that (the risk of damaging productivity by internal conflicts) wouldn't be the reasoning against explicitly comparing employees' performance, rather than a desire to give everyone a chance irrespective of how well they perform in a global comparison.

      – O. R. Mapper
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.

      – JTPenguin
      1 hour ago














    • 2





      Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)

      – O. R. Mapper
      6 hours ago






    • 10





      @O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.

      – Nelson
      6 hours ago













    • @Nelson: I do not doubt it creates a toxic environment (as also pointed out in solarflare's answer) and all kinds of undesired side-effects. I just wonder whether exactly that (the risk of damaging productivity by internal conflicts) wouldn't be the reasoning against explicitly comparing employees' performance, rather than a desire to give everyone a chance irrespective of how well they perform in a global comparison.

      – O. R. Mapper
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.

      – JTPenguin
      1 hour ago








    2




    2





    Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)

    – O. R. Mapper
    6 hours ago





    Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)

    – O. R. Mapper
    6 hours ago




    10




    10





    @O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.

    – Nelson
    6 hours ago







    @O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.

    – Nelson
    6 hours ago















    @Nelson: I do not doubt it creates a toxic environment (as also pointed out in solarflare's answer) and all kinds of undesired side-effects. I just wonder whether exactly that (the risk of damaging productivity by internal conflicts) wouldn't be the reasoning against explicitly comparing employees' performance, rather than a desire to give everyone a chance irrespective of how well they perform in a global comparison.

    – O. R. Mapper
    6 hours ago





    @Nelson: I do not doubt it creates a toxic environment (as also pointed out in solarflare's answer) and all kinds of undesired side-effects. I just wonder whether exactly that (the risk of damaging productivity by internal conflicts) wouldn't be the reasoning against explicitly comparing employees' performance, rather than a desire to give everyone a chance irrespective of how well they perform in a global comparison.

    – O. R. Mapper
    6 hours ago




    1




    1





    Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.

    – JTPenguin
    1 hour ago





    Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.

    – JTPenguin
    1 hour ago













    26














    This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.



    I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 30





      Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!

      – jpatokal
      10 hours ago











    • Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.

      – solarflare
      9 hours ago






    • 2





      Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.

      – Chris
      6 hours ago











    • @jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.

      – vlaz
      5 hours ago











    • @vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      2 hours ago
















    26














    This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.



    I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 30





      Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!

      – jpatokal
      10 hours ago











    • Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.

      – solarflare
      9 hours ago






    • 2





      Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.

      – Chris
      6 hours ago











    • @jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.

      – vlaz
      5 hours ago











    • @vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      2 hours ago














    26












    26








    26







    This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.



    I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.






    share|improve this answer













    This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.



    I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 12 hours ago









    solarflaresolarflare

    5,66821333




    5,66821333








    • 30





      Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!

      – jpatokal
      10 hours ago











    • Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.

      – solarflare
      9 hours ago






    • 2





      Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.

      – Chris
      6 hours ago











    • @jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.

      – vlaz
      5 hours ago











    • @vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      2 hours ago














    • 30





      Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!

      – jpatokal
      10 hours ago











    • Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.

      – solarflare
      9 hours ago






    • 2





      Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.

      – Chris
      6 hours ago











    • @jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.

      – vlaz
      5 hours ago











    • @vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      2 hours ago








    30




    30





    Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!

    – jpatokal
    10 hours ago





    Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!

    – jpatokal
    10 hours ago













    Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.

    – solarflare
    9 hours ago





    Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.

    – solarflare
    9 hours ago




    2




    2





    Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.

    – Chris
    6 hours ago





    Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.

    – Chris
    6 hours ago













    @jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.

    – vlaz
    5 hours ago





    @jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.

    – vlaz
    5 hours ago













    @vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    2 hours ago





    @vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    2 hours ago











    9














    There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.



    Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.



    Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.



    Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.



    However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.



    Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 5





      Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.

      – gnasher729
      4 hours ago






    • 6





      @gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.

      – Paul D. Waite
      4 hours ago
















    9














    There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.



    Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.



    Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.



    Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.



    However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.



    Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 5





      Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.

      – gnasher729
      4 hours ago






    • 6





      @gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.

      – Paul D. Waite
      4 hours ago














    9












    9








    9







    There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.



    Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.



    Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.



    Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.



    However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.



    Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.






    share|improve this answer















    There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.



    Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.



    Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.



    Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.



    However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.



    Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 2 hours ago

























    answered 5 hours ago









    Paul D. WaitePaul D. Waite

    507410




    507410








    • 5





      Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.

      – gnasher729
      4 hours ago






    • 6





      @gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.

      – Paul D. Waite
      4 hours ago














    • 5





      Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.

      – gnasher729
      4 hours ago






    • 6





      @gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.

      – Paul D. Waite
      4 hours ago








    5




    5





    Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.

    – gnasher729
    4 hours ago





    Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.

    – gnasher729
    4 hours ago




    6




    6





    @gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.

    – Paul D. Waite
    4 hours ago





    @gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.

    – Paul D. Waite
    4 hours ago











    5














    I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.



    Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?



    My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.



    On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.



    I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.






    share|improve this answer


























    • I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....

      – user3067860
      50 mins ago











    • @user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.

      – Mefitico
      9 mins ago
















    5














    I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.



    Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?



    My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.



    On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.



    I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.






    share|improve this answer


























    • I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....

      – user3067860
      50 mins ago











    • @user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.

      – Mefitico
      9 mins ago














    5












    5








    5







    I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.



    Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?



    My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.



    On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.



    I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.






    share|improve this answer















    I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.



    Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?



    My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.



    On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.



    I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 8 mins ago

























    answered 3 hours ago









    MefiticoMefitico

    1617




    1617













    • I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....

      – user3067860
      50 mins ago











    • @user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.

      – Mefitico
      9 mins ago



















    • I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....

      – user3067860
      50 mins ago











    • @user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.

      – Mefitico
      9 mins ago

















    I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....

    – user3067860
    50 mins ago





    I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....

    – user3067860
    50 mins ago













    @user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.

    – Mefitico
    9 mins ago





    @user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.

    – Mefitico
    9 mins ago











    2














    It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.



    But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.






    share|improve this answer




























      2














      It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.



      But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.






      share|improve this answer


























        2












        2








        2







        It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.



        But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.






        share|improve this answer













        It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.



        But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 5 hours ago









        DominiqueDominique

        957311




        957311























            2














            While comparing the performance of your "underlings" is a completely natural part of managing a team, doing it out loud is not. This is a toxic behaviour likely to have a horrible effect on morale, with no tangible benefits to boot.



            So one developer is faster at a task than another; publicly shaming the latter is not going to magically increase their aptitude, it is only going to make them feel like cr@p and resent not only you but possibly also the faster coworker. You've just embarrassed them in front of everybody. And for what?



            The two of them almost certainly already know who is the faster at certain tasks. The slower one does not need this to be loudly pointed out to everybody.



            Do not do this!



            Use tact. If you must question why someone took a long time on a task, do so by asking how it could have been achieved faster, and/or quietly decide to yourself that you will assign that category of task to the faster person next time. But public shaming, deliberate or not, is out.






            share|improve this answer
























            • Just realised we're on Workplace so they may not be developers. Well, still generally applies :)

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              1 hour ago











            • I think this still applies across most fields. Would publicly shaming one accountant or a bank teller or truck driver for not being as good as their colleagues be any better?

              – vlaz
              51 mins ago











            • @vlaz: Exactly.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              37 mins ago
















            2














            While comparing the performance of your "underlings" is a completely natural part of managing a team, doing it out loud is not. This is a toxic behaviour likely to have a horrible effect on morale, with no tangible benefits to boot.



            So one developer is faster at a task than another; publicly shaming the latter is not going to magically increase their aptitude, it is only going to make them feel like cr@p and resent not only you but possibly also the faster coworker. You've just embarrassed them in front of everybody. And for what?



            The two of them almost certainly already know who is the faster at certain tasks. The slower one does not need this to be loudly pointed out to everybody.



            Do not do this!



            Use tact. If you must question why someone took a long time on a task, do so by asking how it could have been achieved faster, and/or quietly decide to yourself that you will assign that category of task to the faster person next time. But public shaming, deliberate or not, is out.






            share|improve this answer
























            • Just realised we're on Workplace so they may not be developers. Well, still generally applies :)

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              1 hour ago











            • I think this still applies across most fields. Would publicly shaming one accountant or a bank teller or truck driver for not being as good as their colleagues be any better?

              – vlaz
              51 mins ago











            • @vlaz: Exactly.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              37 mins ago














            2












            2








            2







            While comparing the performance of your "underlings" is a completely natural part of managing a team, doing it out loud is not. This is a toxic behaviour likely to have a horrible effect on morale, with no tangible benefits to boot.



            So one developer is faster at a task than another; publicly shaming the latter is not going to magically increase their aptitude, it is only going to make them feel like cr@p and resent not only you but possibly also the faster coworker. You've just embarrassed them in front of everybody. And for what?



            The two of them almost certainly already know who is the faster at certain tasks. The slower one does not need this to be loudly pointed out to everybody.



            Do not do this!



            Use tact. If you must question why someone took a long time on a task, do so by asking how it could have been achieved faster, and/or quietly decide to yourself that you will assign that category of task to the faster person next time. But public shaming, deliberate or not, is out.






            share|improve this answer













            While comparing the performance of your "underlings" is a completely natural part of managing a team, doing it out loud is not. This is a toxic behaviour likely to have a horrible effect on morale, with no tangible benefits to boot.



            So one developer is faster at a task than another; publicly shaming the latter is not going to magically increase their aptitude, it is only going to make them feel like cr@p and resent not only you but possibly also the faster coworker. You've just embarrassed them in front of everybody. And for what?



            The two of them almost certainly already know who is the faster at certain tasks. The slower one does not need this to be loudly pointed out to everybody.



            Do not do this!



            Use tact. If you must question why someone took a long time on a task, do so by asking how it could have been achieved faster, and/or quietly decide to yourself that you will assign that category of task to the faster person next time. But public shaming, deliberate or not, is out.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 2 hours ago









            Lightness Races in OrbitLightness Races in Orbit

            8,22421635




            8,22421635













            • Just realised we're on Workplace so they may not be developers. Well, still generally applies :)

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              1 hour ago











            • I think this still applies across most fields. Would publicly shaming one accountant or a bank teller or truck driver for not being as good as their colleagues be any better?

              – vlaz
              51 mins ago











            • @vlaz: Exactly.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              37 mins ago



















            • Just realised we're on Workplace so they may not be developers. Well, still generally applies :)

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              1 hour ago











            • I think this still applies across most fields. Would publicly shaming one accountant or a bank teller or truck driver for not being as good as their colleagues be any better?

              – vlaz
              51 mins ago











            • @vlaz: Exactly.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              37 mins ago

















            Just realised we're on Workplace so they may not be developers. Well, still generally applies :)

            – Lightness Races in Orbit
            1 hour ago





            Just realised we're on Workplace so they may not be developers. Well, still generally applies :)

            – Lightness Races in Orbit
            1 hour ago













            I think this still applies across most fields. Would publicly shaming one accountant or a bank teller or truck driver for not being as good as their colleagues be any better?

            – vlaz
            51 mins ago





            I think this still applies across most fields. Would publicly shaming one accountant or a bank teller or truck driver for not being as good as their colleagues be any better?

            – vlaz
            51 mins ago













            @vlaz: Exactly.

            – Lightness Races in Orbit
            37 mins ago





            @vlaz: Exactly.

            – Lightness Races in Orbit
            37 mins ago











            -4














            The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.



            The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.
















            • 4





              They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              2 hours ago








            • 1





              @LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.

              – vlaz
              52 mins ago











            • @vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              36 mins ago


















            -4














            The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.



            The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.
















            • 4





              They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              2 hours ago








            • 1





              @LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.

              – vlaz
              52 mins ago











            • @vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              36 mins ago
















            -4












            -4








            -4







            The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.



            The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.










            The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.



            The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.







            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer






            New contributor




            Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            answered 2 hours ago









            Adam MartinAdam Martin

            1011




            1011




            New contributor




            Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





            New contributor





            Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.








            • 4





              They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              2 hours ago








            • 1





              @LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.

              – vlaz
              52 mins ago











            • @vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              36 mins ago
















            • 4





              They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              2 hours ago








            • 1





              @LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.

              – vlaz
              52 mins ago











            • @vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              36 mins ago










            4




            4





            They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).

            – Lightness Races in Orbit
            2 hours ago







            They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).

            – Lightness Races in Orbit
            2 hours ago






            1




            1





            @LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.

            – vlaz
            52 mins ago





            @LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.

            – vlaz
            52 mins ago













            @vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.

            – Lightness Races in Orbit
            36 mins ago







            @vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.

            – Lightness Races in Orbit
            36 mins ago




















            draft saved

            draft discarded




















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to The Workplace Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworkplace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f126392%2fhow-acceptable-is-it-to-openly-compare-team-member-performances%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown











            Popular posts from this blog

            GameSpot

            日野市

            Tu-95轟炸機