Does Young's inequality hold only for conjugate exponents?












5












$begingroup$


Suppose that $ab leq frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^q$ holds for every real numbers $a,bge 0$. (where $p,q>0$ are some fixed numbers).



Is it true that $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}=1$?



I guess so, and I would like to find an easy proof of that fact. Plugging in $a=b=1$, we get $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}ge1$. Is there an easy way to see that the converse inequality must hold?



To be clear, I am not looking for proofs of Young's inequality; only for a way to see why the relation between the conjugate exponents is the only possible option.



Edit:



Here is a comment to help future readers (including future me) to see how can one come with Nicolás's nice idea to apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$.



The idea is that it is inconvenient to compare a sum with another number; By using the specific choice of $a,b$ above, the sum is simplified, since the scales of the auxiliary parameter $lambda$ in both summands are now identical.





Comment: I know that the relation $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}=1$ is necessary for Holder's inequality in general; this can be seen by scaling the measure. However, I don't think this approach is applicable here.










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$endgroup$

















    5












    $begingroup$


    Suppose that $ab leq frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^q$ holds for every real numbers $a,bge 0$. (where $p,q>0$ are some fixed numbers).



    Is it true that $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}=1$?



    I guess so, and I would like to find an easy proof of that fact. Plugging in $a=b=1$, we get $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}ge1$. Is there an easy way to see that the converse inequality must hold?



    To be clear, I am not looking for proofs of Young's inequality; only for a way to see why the relation between the conjugate exponents is the only possible option.



    Edit:



    Here is a comment to help future readers (including future me) to see how can one come with Nicolás's nice idea to apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$.



    The idea is that it is inconvenient to compare a sum with another number; By using the specific choice of $a,b$ above, the sum is simplified, since the scales of the auxiliary parameter $lambda$ in both summands are now identical.





    Comment: I know that the relation $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}=1$ is necessary for Holder's inequality in general; this can be seen by scaling the measure. However, I don't think this approach is applicable here.










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      5












      5








      5


      0



      $begingroup$


      Suppose that $ab leq frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^q$ holds for every real numbers $a,bge 0$. (where $p,q>0$ are some fixed numbers).



      Is it true that $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}=1$?



      I guess so, and I would like to find an easy proof of that fact. Plugging in $a=b=1$, we get $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}ge1$. Is there an easy way to see that the converse inequality must hold?



      To be clear, I am not looking for proofs of Young's inequality; only for a way to see why the relation between the conjugate exponents is the only possible option.



      Edit:



      Here is a comment to help future readers (including future me) to see how can one come with Nicolás's nice idea to apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$.



      The idea is that it is inconvenient to compare a sum with another number; By using the specific choice of $a,b$ above, the sum is simplified, since the scales of the auxiliary parameter $lambda$ in both summands are now identical.





      Comment: I know that the relation $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}=1$ is necessary for Holder's inequality in general; this can be seen by scaling the measure. However, I don't think this approach is applicable here.










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Suppose that $ab leq frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^q$ holds for every real numbers $a,bge 0$. (where $p,q>0$ are some fixed numbers).



      Is it true that $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}=1$?



      I guess so, and I would like to find an easy proof of that fact. Plugging in $a=b=1$, we get $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}ge1$. Is there an easy way to see that the converse inequality must hold?



      To be clear, I am not looking for proofs of Young's inequality; only for a way to see why the relation between the conjugate exponents is the only possible option.



      Edit:



      Here is a comment to help future readers (including future me) to see how can one come with Nicolás's nice idea to apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$.



      The idea is that it is inconvenient to compare a sum with another number; By using the specific choice of $a,b$ above, the sum is simplified, since the scales of the auxiliary parameter $lambda$ in both summands are now identical.





      Comment: I know that the relation $ frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}=1$ is necessary for Holder's inequality in general; this can be seen by scaling the measure. However, I don't think this approach is applicable here.







      real-analysis inequality symmetry young-inequality






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      edited 7 hours ago







      Asaf Shachar

















      asked 9 hours ago









      Asaf ShacharAsaf Shachar

      5,2423941




      5,2423941






















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          10












          $begingroup$

          If you apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$, you get something like
          $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}leq left( frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q} right)lambda, qquad forall lambda>0. $$
          If you take $lambda to infty$, it's clear that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}leq 1$. Otherwise, after dividing by $lambda$ you get
          $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}-1} leq frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}, $$
          which is false for $lambda$ large enough, as the right side is constant. Taking $lambda to 0$ gets the other inequality.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            2












            $begingroup$

            I think the following can help.



            By AM-GM $$frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^qgeqleft(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)left(left(a^pright)^{frac{1}{p}}left(b^qright)^{frac{1}{q}}right)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}=left(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)(ab)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}.$$
            The equality occurs, of course.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Thanks, but I do not understand; How exactly do you deduce from that something on the sum $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}$? I tried putting $a^p=b^q$ (this is when we have equality in the AM-GM inequality) but I don't see how it helps.
              $endgroup$
              – Asaf Shachar
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @Asaf Shachar The equality, which I got is true for all positives $a$, $b$, $p$ and $q$. If we'll assume that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}neq1$ then your inequality would wrong.
              $endgroup$
              – Michael Rozenberg
              3 hours ago



















            0












            $begingroup$

            I found an argument that works for $p,qge 1$, since I need convexity of $xto x^p,x^q$.
            Assume by contradiction that $1/p+1/q>1$. Then, if $p'$ is the conjugate of $q$ we know that $p'>p$.



            Now, for any $a>0$ we have
            $$
            a^{p'}/p'=maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
            $$

            (just because $ato a^{p'}/p'$ is the conjugate (Legendre transform) of $bto b^q/q$). Then we can pick $a$ large enough such that
            $$
            frac{a^p}{p}<frac{a^{p'}}{p'}
            $$

            and for such $a$ we would have
            $$
            a^{p}/p<maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
            $$

            which implies that for some $b>0$ (and the given $a$) Young's inequality is violated.



            Hope this helps.






            share|cite|improve this answer








            New contributor




            GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






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              3 Answers
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              10












              $begingroup$

              If you apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$, you get something like
              $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}leq left( frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q} right)lambda, qquad forall lambda>0. $$
              If you take $lambda to infty$, it's clear that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}leq 1$. Otherwise, after dividing by $lambda$ you get
              $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}-1} leq frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}, $$
              which is false for $lambda$ large enough, as the right side is constant. Taking $lambda to 0$ gets the other inequality.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                10












                $begingroup$

                If you apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$, you get something like
                $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}leq left( frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q} right)lambda, qquad forall lambda>0. $$
                If you take $lambda to infty$, it's clear that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}leq 1$. Otherwise, after dividing by $lambda$ you get
                $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}-1} leq frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}, $$
                which is false for $lambda$ large enough, as the right side is constant. Taking $lambda to 0$ gets the other inequality.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  10












                  10








                  10





                  $begingroup$

                  If you apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$, you get something like
                  $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}leq left( frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q} right)lambda, qquad forall lambda>0. $$
                  If you take $lambda to infty$, it's clear that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}leq 1$. Otherwise, after dividing by $lambda$ you get
                  $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}-1} leq frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}, $$
                  which is false for $lambda$ large enough, as the right side is constant. Taking $lambda to 0$ gets the other inequality.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  If you apply the inequality for $a=lambda^{frac{1}{p}}, b=lambda^{frac{1}{q}}$, you get something like
                  $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}leq left( frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q} right)lambda, qquad forall lambda>0. $$
                  If you take $lambda to infty$, it's clear that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}leq 1$. Otherwise, after dividing by $lambda$ you get
                  $$ lambda^{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}-1} leq frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}, $$
                  which is false for $lambda$ large enough, as the right side is constant. Taking $lambda to 0$ gets the other inequality.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 8 hours ago









                  Nicolás VilchesNicolás Vilches

                  49128




                  49128























                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      I think the following can help.



                      By AM-GM $$frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^qgeqleft(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)left(left(a^pright)^{frac{1}{p}}left(b^qright)^{frac{1}{q}}right)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}=left(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)(ab)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}.$$
                      The equality occurs, of course.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks, but I do not understand; How exactly do you deduce from that something on the sum $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}$? I tried putting $a^p=b^q$ (this is when we have equality in the AM-GM inequality) but I don't see how it helps.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Asaf Shachar
                        3 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @Asaf Shachar The equality, which I got is true for all positives $a$, $b$, $p$ and $q$. If we'll assume that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}neq1$ then your inequality would wrong.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Rozenberg
                        3 hours ago
















                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      I think the following can help.



                      By AM-GM $$frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^qgeqleft(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)left(left(a^pright)^{frac{1}{p}}left(b^qright)^{frac{1}{q}}right)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}=left(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)(ab)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}.$$
                      The equality occurs, of course.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks, but I do not understand; How exactly do you deduce from that something on the sum $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}$? I tried putting $a^p=b^q$ (this is when we have equality in the AM-GM inequality) but I don't see how it helps.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Asaf Shachar
                        3 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @Asaf Shachar The equality, which I got is true for all positives $a$, $b$, $p$ and $q$. If we'll assume that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}neq1$ then your inequality would wrong.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Rozenberg
                        3 hours ago














                      2












                      2








                      2





                      $begingroup$

                      I think the following can help.



                      By AM-GM $$frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^qgeqleft(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)left(left(a^pright)^{frac{1}{p}}left(b^qright)^{frac{1}{q}}right)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}=left(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)(ab)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}.$$
                      The equality occurs, of course.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      I think the following can help.



                      By AM-GM $$frac{1}{p}a^p+frac{1}{q}b^qgeqleft(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)left(left(a^pright)^{frac{1}{p}}left(b^qright)^{frac{1}{q}}right)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}=left(frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}right)(ab)^{frac{1}{frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}}}.$$
                      The equality occurs, of course.







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited 8 hours ago

























                      answered 8 hours ago









                      Michael RozenbergMichael Rozenberg

                      98.2k1590188




                      98.2k1590188












                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks, but I do not understand; How exactly do you deduce from that something on the sum $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}$? I tried putting $a^p=b^q$ (this is when we have equality in the AM-GM inequality) but I don't see how it helps.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Asaf Shachar
                        3 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @Asaf Shachar The equality, which I got is true for all positives $a$, $b$, $p$ and $q$. If we'll assume that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}neq1$ then your inequality would wrong.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Rozenberg
                        3 hours ago


















                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks, but I do not understand; How exactly do you deduce from that something on the sum $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}$? I tried putting $a^p=b^q$ (this is when we have equality in the AM-GM inequality) but I don't see how it helps.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Asaf Shachar
                        3 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @Asaf Shachar The equality, which I got is true for all positives $a$, $b$, $p$ and $q$. If we'll assume that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}neq1$ then your inequality would wrong.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Rozenberg
                        3 hours ago
















                      $begingroup$
                      Thanks, but I do not understand; How exactly do you deduce from that something on the sum $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}$? I tried putting $a^p=b^q$ (this is when we have equality in the AM-GM inequality) but I don't see how it helps.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Asaf Shachar
                      3 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      Thanks, but I do not understand; How exactly do you deduce from that something on the sum $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}$? I tried putting $a^p=b^q$ (this is when we have equality in the AM-GM inequality) but I don't see how it helps.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Asaf Shachar
                      3 hours ago












                      $begingroup$
                      @Asaf Shachar The equality, which I got is true for all positives $a$, $b$, $p$ and $q$. If we'll assume that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}neq1$ then your inequality would wrong.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Michael Rozenberg
                      3 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      @Asaf Shachar The equality, which I got is true for all positives $a$, $b$, $p$ and $q$. If we'll assume that $frac{1}{p}+frac{1}{q}neq1$ then your inequality would wrong.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Michael Rozenberg
                      3 hours ago











                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      I found an argument that works for $p,qge 1$, since I need convexity of $xto x^p,x^q$.
                      Assume by contradiction that $1/p+1/q>1$. Then, if $p'$ is the conjugate of $q$ we know that $p'>p$.



                      Now, for any $a>0$ we have
                      $$
                      a^{p'}/p'=maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
                      $$

                      (just because $ato a^{p'}/p'$ is the conjugate (Legendre transform) of $bto b^q/q$). Then we can pick $a$ large enough such that
                      $$
                      frac{a^p}{p}<frac{a^{p'}}{p'}
                      $$

                      and for such $a$ we would have
                      $$
                      a^{p}/p<maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
                      $$

                      which implies that for some $b>0$ (and the given $a$) Young's inequality is violated.



                      Hope this helps.






                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.






                      $endgroup$


















                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        I found an argument that works for $p,qge 1$, since I need convexity of $xto x^p,x^q$.
                        Assume by contradiction that $1/p+1/q>1$. Then, if $p'$ is the conjugate of $q$ we know that $p'>p$.



                        Now, for any $a>0$ we have
                        $$
                        a^{p'}/p'=maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
                        $$

                        (just because $ato a^{p'}/p'$ is the conjugate (Legendre transform) of $bto b^q/q$). Then we can pick $a$ large enough such that
                        $$
                        frac{a^p}{p}<frac{a^{p'}}{p'}
                        $$

                        and for such $a$ we would have
                        $$
                        a^{p}/p<maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
                        $$

                        which implies that for some $b>0$ (and the given $a$) Young's inequality is violated.



                        Hope this helps.






                        share|cite|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.






                        $endgroup$
















                          0












                          0








                          0





                          $begingroup$

                          I found an argument that works for $p,qge 1$, since I need convexity of $xto x^p,x^q$.
                          Assume by contradiction that $1/p+1/q>1$. Then, if $p'$ is the conjugate of $q$ we know that $p'>p$.



                          Now, for any $a>0$ we have
                          $$
                          a^{p'}/p'=maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
                          $$

                          (just because $ato a^{p'}/p'$ is the conjugate (Legendre transform) of $bto b^q/q$). Then we can pick $a$ large enough such that
                          $$
                          frac{a^p}{p}<frac{a^{p'}}{p'}
                          $$

                          and for such $a$ we would have
                          $$
                          a^{p}/p<maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
                          $$

                          which implies that for some $b>0$ (and the given $a$) Young's inequality is violated.



                          Hope this helps.






                          share|cite|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






                          $endgroup$



                          I found an argument that works for $p,qge 1$, since I need convexity of $xto x^p,x^q$.
                          Assume by contradiction that $1/p+1/q>1$. Then, if $p'$ is the conjugate of $q$ we know that $p'>p$.



                          Now, for any $a>0$ we have
                          $$
                          a^{p'}/p'=maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
                          $$

                          (just because $ato a^{p'}/p'$ is the conjugate (Legendre transform) of $bto b^q/q$). Then we can pick $a$ large enough such that
                          $$
                          frac{a^p}{p}<frac{a^{p'}}{p'}
                          $$

                          and for such $a$ we would have
                          $$
                          a^{p}/p<maxlimits_{b>0}{ab-b^q/q}
                          $$

                          which implies that for some $b>0$ (and the given $a$) Young's inequality is violated.



                          Hope this helps.







                          share|cite|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.









                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer






                          New contributor




                          GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.









                          answered 8 hours ago









                          GReyesGReyes

                          2563




                          2563




                          New contributor




                          GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.





                          New contributor





                          GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






                          GReyes is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






























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