Do infinite dimensional systems make sense?












6












$begingroup$


I'm learning infinite-dimensional systems in mathematical viewpoint and trying to understand it from physical perspective.



I would like to understand if infinite-dimensional systems make sense in physics, especially when it becomes necessary in quantum control theory. Are there any simple and intuitive examples?










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New contributor




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  • 4




    $begingroup$
    "Makes sense" is kind of hard to interpret. But they're definitely useful as models describing the observable behavior of some systems. In fact, you're probably referring to countably-infinite-dimensional spaces, aka separable. There are also uses for uncountably-infinite-dimensional (aka non separable) spaces, e.g., physics.stackexchange.com/questions/60608 (and google for lots more stuff).
    $endgroup$
    – John Forkosh
    yesterday
















6












$begingroup$


I'm learning infinite-dimensional systems in mathematical viewpoint and trying to understand it from physical perspective.



I would like to understand if infinite-dimensional systems make sense in physics, especially when it becomes necessary in quantum control theory. Are there any simple and intuitive examples?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Gao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    "Makes sense" is kind of hard to interpret. But they're definitely useful as models describing the observable behavior of some systems. In fact, you're probably referring to countably-infinite-dimensional spaces, aka separable. There are also uses for uncountably-infinite-dimensional (aka non separable) spaces, e.g., physics.stackexchange.com/questions/60608 (and google for lots more stuff).
    $endgroup$
    – John Forkosh
    yesterday














6












6








6


1



$begingroup$


I'm learning infinite-dimensional systems in mathematical viewpoint and trying to understand it from physical perspective.



I would like to understand if infinite-dimensional systems make sense in physics, especially when it becomes necessary in quantum control theory. Are there any simple and intuitive examples?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Gao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




I'm learning infinite-dimensional systems in mathematical viewpoint and trying to understand it from physical perspective.



I would like to understand if infinite-dimensional systems make sense in physics, especially when it becomes necessary in quantum control theory. Are there any simple and intuitive examples?







quantum-mechanics hilbert-space






share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Gao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Gao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited yesterday









Ruslan

9,81843173




9,81843173






New contributor




Gao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked yesterday









GaoGao

343




343




New contributor




Gao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Gao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Gao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    "Makes sense" is kind of hard to interpret. But they're definitely useful as models describing the observable behavior of some systems. In fact, you're probably referring to countably-infinite-dimensional spaces, aka separable. There are also uses for uncountably-infinite-dimensional (aka non separable) spaces, e.g., physics.stackexchange.com/questions/60608 (and google for lots more stuff).
    $endgroup$
    – John Forkosh
    yesterday














  • 4




    $begingroup$
    "Makes sense" is kind of hard to interpret. But they're definitely useful as models describing the observable behavior of some systems. In fact, you're probably referring to countably-infinite-dimensional spaces, aka separable. There are also uses for uncountably-infinite-dimensional (aka non separable) spaces, e.g., physics.stackexchange.com/questions/60608 (and google for lots more stuff).
    $endgroup$
    – John Forkosh
    yesterday








4




4




$begingroup$
"Makes sense" is kind of hard to interpret. But they're definitely useful as models describing the observable behavior of some systems. In fact, you're probably referring to countably-infinite-dimensional spaces, aka separable. There are also uses for uncountably-infinite-dimensional (aka non separable) spaces, e.g., physics.stackexchange.com/questions/60608 (and google for lots more stuff).
$endgroup$
– John Forkosh
yesterday




$begingroup$
"Makes sense" is kind of hard to interpret. But they're definitely useful as models describing the observable behavior of some systems. In fact, you're probably referring to countably-infinite-dimensional spaces, aka separable. There are also uses for uncountably-infinite-dimensional (aka non separable) spaces, e.g., physics.stackexchange.com/questions/60608 (and google for lots more stuff).
$endgroup$
– John Forkosh
yesterday










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















22












$begingroup$

Welcome to Stack Exchange!



I do not know much about quantum control theory, but I can give you a simple example from regular quantum mechanics: that of a particle in a box. This is one of the simplest systems one can study in QM, but even here an infinite dimensional space shows up.

Indexing the energy eigenstates by $n$ so that $$H|nrangle=E_n|nrangle$$ there is an infinite number of possible states, one for every integer. Every state with its own energy: $$E_n=frac{n^2pi^2hbar^2}{2mL^2}.$$ Thus if you want to describe a general quantum state in this system you would write it down as $$|psirangle=sum_{n=1}^infty c_n|nrangle,$$ where $c_n$ is a complex number. $|psirangle$ is then an example of a vector in an infinite dimensional space where every possible state is a basis vector, and the $c_n$ are the expansion coefficients in that basis.



You can of course imagine the $n$ indexing some other collection of states of some other system. Indeed, in most cases the dimension of the space of all possible states of a quantum system will be infinite dimensional.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Welcome on the Stack Exchange :-)
    $endgroup$
    – peterh
    16 hours ago



















3












$begingroup$

"Infinite" for me does not make much sense in physics. It is a nice mathematical tools, you need it to make calculations; but for real things I prefer "very large". I have seen many "very large" things; I have never seen anything infinite.



Anyway, more seriously, we use all the time infinite dimensional spaces, they are useful. From the example of "particle in a box" by >JSorngard:



You want to keep your particle in one eigenstate, against external disturbance. It can excape going to other eigenstates. Those, in theory, are infinite, so to calculate the probability for your particle to fall off from your favourite eigenstate, you sum the transition probability to each of all those (infinite) states. And it works!!



In practice there are not really infinite eigenstates; the particle is confined by some actual physical trap that is finite in size and can hold only finite energy. But incredibly often you can disregard this finiteness, as the infinite sum is almost identical to the (very large) sum of the actual eigenstate.



Another argument in favour of usefulness/reality of infinites is about notation: we use infinite things to define & manipulate a normal object.
Example is the Taylor expansion of $e^x$:
It is an infinite sum, its useful, don't give rise to anything nonsensical.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "I have never seen anything infinite." are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, ok, maybe I've seen it, but I didn't manage to see it all, my small brain recorded only a small part!
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    You will not "see" irrational numbers either, so I guess you can only use finite mathematics to do physics?
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Argerami
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yes, my computer and all sensors I know use only integers; irrationals are just approximated with large integers. About brain and analog machines, we can discuss... My meaning was that a tool (infinity, irrationals..) can "make few sense" in physics, while being actually useful.
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    Do you happen, by chance, to be a finitist?
    $endgroup$
    – Don Thousand
    14 hours ago












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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









22












$begingroup$

Welcome to Stack Exchange!



I do not know much about quantum control theory, but I can give you a simple example from regular quantum mechanics: that of a particle in a box. This is one of the simplest systems one can study in QM, but even here an infinite dimensional space shows up.

Indexing the energy eigenstates by $n$ so that $$H|nrangle=E_n|nrangle$$ there is an infinite number of possible states, one for every integer. Every state with its own energy: $$E_n=frac{n^2pi^2hbar^2}{2mL^2}.$$ Thus if you want to describe a general quantum state in this system you would write it down as $$|psirangle=sum_{n=1}^infty c_n|nrangle,$$ where $c_n$ is a complex number. $|psirangle$ is then an example of a vector in an infinite dimensional space where every possible state is a basis vector, and the $c_n$ are the expansion coefficients in that basis.



You can of course imagine the $n$ indexing some other collection of states of some other system. Indeed, in most cases the dimension of the space of all possible states of a quantum system will be infinite dimensional.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Welcome on the Stack Exchange :-)
    $endgroup$
    – peterh
    16 hours ago
















22












$begingroup$

Welcome to Stack Exchange!



I do not know much about quantum control theory, but I can give you a simple example from regular quantum mechanics: that of a particle in a box. This is one of the simplest systems one can study in QM, but even here an infinite dimensional space shows up.

Indexing the energy eigenstates by $n$ so that $$H|nrangle=E_n|nrangle$$ there is an infinite number of possible states, one for every integer. Every state with its own energy: $$E_n=frac{n^2pi^2hbar^2}{2mL^2}.$$ Thus if you want to describe a general quantum state in this system you would write it down as $$|psirangle=sum_{n=1}^infty c_n|nrangle,$$ where $c_n$ is a complex number. $|psirangle$ is then an example of a vector in an infinite dimensional space where every possible state is a basis vector, and the $c_n$ are the expansion coefficients in that basis.



You can of course imagine the $n$ indexing some other collection of states of some other system. Indeed, in most cases the dimension of the space of all possible states of a quantum system will be infinite dimensional.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Welcome on the Stack Exchange :-)
    $endgroup$
    – peterh
    16 hours ago














22












22








22





$begingroup$

Welcome to Stack Exchange!



I do not know much about quantum control theory, but I can give you a simple example from regular quantum mechanics: that of a particle in a box. This is one of the simplest systems one can study in QM, but even here an infinite dimensional space shows up.

Indexing the energy eigenstates by $n$ so that $$H|nrangle=E_n|nrangle$$ there is an infinite number of possible states, one for every integer. Every state with its own energy: $$E_n=frac{n^2pi^2hbar^2}{2mL^2}.$$ Thus if you want to describe a general quantum state in this system you would write it down as $$|psirangle=sum_{n=1}^infty c_n|nrangle,$$ where $c_n$ is a complex number. $|psirangle$ is then an example of a vector in an infinite dimensional space where every possible state is a basis vector, and the $c_n$ are the expansion coefficients in that basis.



You can of course imagine the $n$ indexing some other collection of states of some other system. Indeed, in most cases the dimension of the space of all possible states of a quantum system will be infinite dimensional.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Welcome to Stack Exchange!



I do not know much about quantum control theory, but I can give you a simple example from regular quantum mechanics: that of a particle in a box. This is one of the simplest systems one can study in QM, but even here an infinite dimensional space shows up.

Indexing the energy eigenstates by $n$ so that $$H|nrangle=E_n|nrangle$$ there is an infinite number of possible states, one for every integer. Every state with its own energy: $$E_n=frac{n^2pi^2hbar^2}{2mL^2}.$$ Thus if you want to describe a general quantum state in this system you would write it down as $$|psirangle=sum_{n=1}^infty c_n|nrangle,$$ where $c_n$ is a complex number. $|psirangle$ is then an example of a vector in an infinite dimensional space where every possible state is a basis vector, and the $c_n$ are the expansion coefficients in that basis.



You can of course imagine the $n$ indexing some other collection of states of some other system. Indeed, in most cases the dimension of the space of all possible states of a quantum system will be infinite dimensional.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited yesterday

























answered yesterday









JSorngardJSorngard

3416




3416












  • $begingroup$
    Welcome on the Stack Exchange :-)
    $endgroup$
    – peterh
    16 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Welcome on the Stack Exchange :-)
    $endgroup$
    – peterh
    16 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Welcome on the Stack Exchange :-)
$endgroup$
– peterh
16 hours ago




$begingroup$
Welcome on the Stack Exchange :-)
$endgroup$
– peterh
16 hours ago











3












$begingroup$

"Infinite" for me does not make much sense in physics. It is a nice mathematical tools, you need it to make calculations; but for real things I prefer "very large". I have seen many "very large" things; I have never seen anything infinite.



Anyway, more seriously, we use all the time infinite dimensional spaces, they are useful. From the example of "particle in a box" by >JSorngard:



You want to keep your particle in one eigenstate, against external disturbance. It can excape going to other eigenstates. Those, in theory, are infinite, so to calculate the probability for your particle to fall off from your favourite eigenstate, you sum the transition probability to each of all those (infinite) states. And it works!!



In practice there are not really infinite eigenstates; the particle is confined by some actual physical trap that is finite in size and can hold only finite energy. But incredibly often you can disregard this finiteness, as the infinite sum is almost identical to the (very large) sum of the actual eigenstate.



Another argument in favour of usefulness/reality of infinites is about notation: we use infinite things to define & manipulate a normal object.
Example is the Taylor expansion of $e^x$:
It is an infinite sum, its useful, don't give rise to anything nonsensical.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "I have never seen anything infinite." are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, ok, maybe I've seen it, but I didn't manage to see it all, my small brain recorded only a small part!
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    You will not "see" irrational numbers either, so I guess you can only use finite mathematics to do physics?
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Argerami
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yes, my computer and all sensors I know use only integers; irrationals are just approximated with large integers. About brain and analog machines, we can discuss... My meaning was that a tool (infinity, irrationals..) can "make few sense" in physics, while being actually useful.
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    Do you happen, by chance, to be a finitist?
    $endgroup$
    – Don Thousand
    14 hours ago
















3












$begingroup$

"Infinite" for me does not make much sense in physics. It is a nice mathematical tools, you need it to make calculations; but for real things I prefer "very large". I have seen many "very large" things; I have never seen anything infinite.



Anyway, more seriously, we use all the time infinite dimensional spaces, they are useful. From the example of "particle in a box" by >JSorngard:



You want to keep your particle in one eigenstate, against external disturbance. It can excape going to other eigenstates. Those, in theory, are infinite, so to calculate the probability for your particle to fall off from your favourite eigenstate, you sum the transition probability to each of all those (infinite) states. And it works!!



In practice there are not really infinite eigenstates; the particle is confined by some actual physical trap that is finite in size and can hold only finite energy. But incredibly often you can disregard this finiteness, as the infinite sum is almost identical to the (very large) sum of the actual eigenstate.



Another argument in favour of usefulness/reality of infinites is about notation: we use infinite things to define & manipulate a normal object.
Example is the Taylor expansion of $e^x$:
It is an infinite sum, its useful, don't give rise to anything nonsensical.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "I have never seen anything infinite." are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, ok, maybe I've seen it, but I didn't manage to see it all, my small brain recorded only a small part!
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    You will not "see" irrational numbers either, so I guess you can only use finite mathematics to do physics?
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Argerami
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yes, my computer and all sensors I know use only integers; irrationals are just approximated with large integers. About brain and analog machines, we can discuss... My meaning was that a tool (infinity, irrationals..) can "make few sense" in physics, while being actually useful.
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    Do you happen, by chance, to be a finitist?
    $endgroup$
    – Don Thousand
    14 hours ago














3












3








3





$begingroup$

"Infinite" for me does not make much sense in physics. It is a nice mathematical tools, you need it to make calculations; but for real things I prefer "very large". I have seen many "very large" things; I have never seen anything infinite.



Anyway, more seriously, we use all the time infinite dimensional spaces, they are useful. From the example of "particle in a box" by >JSorngard:



You want to keep your particle in one eigenstate, against external disturbance. It can excape going to other eigenstates. Those, in theory, are infinite, so to calculate the probability for your particle to fall off from your favourite eigenstate, you sum the transition probability to each of all those (infinite) states. And it works!!



In practice there are not really infinite eigenstates; the particle is confined by some actual physical trap that is finite in size and can hold only finite energy. But incredibly often you can disregard this finiteness, as the infinite sum is almost identical to the (very large) sum of the actual eigenstate.



Another argument in favour of usefulness/reality of infinites is about notation: we use infinite things to define & manipulate a normal object.
Example is the Taylor expansion of $e^x$:
It is an infinite sum, its useful, don't give rise to anything nonsensical.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



"Infinite" for me does not make much sense in physics. It is a nice mathematical tools, you need it to make calculations; but for real things I prefer "very large". I have seen many "very large" things; I have never seen anything infinite.



Anyway, more seriously, we use all the time infinite dimensional spaces, they are useful. From the example of "particle in a box" by >JSorngard:



You want to keep your particle in one eigenstate, against external disturbance. It can excape going to other eigenstates. Those, in theory, are infinite, so to calculate the probability for your particle to fall off from your favourite eigenstate, you sum the transition probability to each of all those (infinite) states. And it works!!



In practice there are not really infinite eigenstates; the particle is confined by some actual physical trap that is finite in size and can hold only finite energy. But incredibly often you can disregard this finiteness, as the infinite sum is almost identical to the (very large) sum of the actual eigenstate.



Another argument in favour of usefulness/reality of infinites is about notation: we use infinite things to define & manipulate a normal object.
Example is the Taylor expansion of $e^x$:
It is an infinite sum, its useful, don't give rise to anything nonsensical.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered yesterday









pattapatta

813




813








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "I have never seen anything infinite." are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, ok, maybe I've seen it, but I didn't manage to see it all, my small brain recorded only a small part!
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    You will not "see" irrational numbers either, so I guess you can only use finite mathematics to do physics?
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Argerami
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yes, my computer and all sensors I know use only integers; irrationals are just approximated with large integers. About brain and analog machines, we can discuss... My meaning was that a tool (infinity, irrationals..) can "make few sense" in physics, while being actually useful.
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    Do you happen, by chance, to be a finitist?
    $endgroup$
    – Don Thousand
    14 hours ago














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "I have never seen anything infinite." are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, ok, maybe I've seen it, but I didn't manage to see it all, my small brain recorded only a small part!
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    You will not "see" irrational numbers either, so I guess you can only use finite mathematics to do physics?
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Argerami
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yes, my computer and all sensors I know use only integers; irrationals are just approximated with large integers. About brain and analog machines, we can discuss... My meaning was that a tool (infinity, irrationals..) can "make few sense" in physics, while being actually useful.
    $endgroup$
    – patta
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    Do you happen, by chance, to be a finitist?
    $endgroup$
    – Don Thousand
    14 hours ago








2




2




$begingroup$
"I have never seen anything infinite." are you sure?
$endgroup$
– Orangesandlemons
yesterday




$begingroup$
"I have never seen anything infinite." are you sure?
$endgroup$
– Orangesandlemons
yesterday




1




1




$begingroup$
Well, ok, maybe I've seen it, but I didn't manage to see it all, my small brain recorded only a small part!
$endgroup$
– patta
yesterday




$begingroup$
Well, ok, maybe I've seen it, but I didn't manage to see it all, my small brain recorded only a small part!
$endgroup$
– patta
yesterday












$begingroup$
You will not "see" irrational numbers either, so I guess you can only use finite mathematics to do physics?
$endgroup$
– Martin Argerami
yesterday




$begingroup$
You will not "see" irrational numbers either, so I guess you can only use finite mathematics to do physics?
$endgroup$
– Martin Argerami
yesterday




2




2




$begingroup$
Yes, my computer and all sensors I know use only integers; irrationals are just approximated with large integers. About brain and analog machines, we can discuss... My meaning was that a tool (infinity, irrationals..) can "make few sense" in physics, while being actually useful.
$endgroup$
– patta
yesterday






$begingroup$
Yes, my computer and all sensors I know use only integers; irrationals are just approximated with large integers. About brain and analog machines, we can discuss... My meaning was that a tool (infinity, irrationals..) can "make few sense" in physics, while being actually useful.
$endgroup$
– patta
yesterday














$begingroup$
Do you happen, by chance, to be a finitist?
$endgroup$
– Don Thousand
14 hours ago




$begingroup$
Do you happen, by chance, to be a finitist?
$endgroup$
– Don Thousand
14 hours ago










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