Is a secondary dominant always a seventh chord?












3















I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).










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    3















    I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).










    share|improve this question

























      3












      3








      3








      I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).










      share|improve this question














      I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).







      chords harmony






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      asked 7 hours ago









      foreyezforeyez

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          No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.






          share|improve this answer
























          • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

            – piiperi
            5 hours ago



















          2














          The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



          Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!






          share|improve this answer































            1














            The answer is:NO



            while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
            the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



            I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



            They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



            Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



            enter image description here






            share|improve this answer


























            • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

              – Tim
              3 hours ago











            • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

              – Albrecht Hügli
              2 hours ago



















            0














            "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



            Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



            In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



            what is required for what



            On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



            Some more:
            enter image description here



            To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.






            share|improve this answer


























            • Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

              – topo morto
              4 hours ago






            • 1





              @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

              – piiperi
              3 hours ago



















            0














            A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



            A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.






            share|improve this answer























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              5 Answers
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              No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.






              share|improve this answer
























              • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

                – piiperi
                5 hours ago
















              4














              No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.






              share|improve this answer
























              • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

                – piiperi
                5 hours ago














              4












              4








              4







              No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.






              share|improve this answer













              No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 6 hours ago









              DekkadeciDekkadeci

              4,80121220




              4,80121220













              • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

                – piiperi
                5 hours ago



















              • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

                – piiperi
                5 hours ago

















              The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

              – piiperi
              5 hours ago





              The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

              – piiperi
              5 hours ago











              2














              The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



              Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!






              share|improve this answer




























                2














                The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



                Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!






                share|improve this answer


























                  2












                  2








                  2







                  The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



                  Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!






                  share|improve this answer













                  The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



                  Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 4 hours ago









                  TimTim

                  97.8k10100251




                  97.8k10100251























                      1














                      The answer is:NO



                      while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
                      the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



                      I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



                      They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



                      Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



                      enter image description here






                      share|improve this answer


























                      • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

                        – Tim
                        3 hours ago











                      • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

                        – Albrecht Hügli
                        2 hours ago
















                      1














                      The answer is:NO



                      while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
                      the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



                      I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



                      They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



                      Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



                      enter image description here






                      share|improve this answer


























                      • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

                        – Tim
                        3 hours ago











                      • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

                        – Albrecht Hügli
                        2 hours ago














                      1












                      1








                      1







                      The answer is:NO



                      while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
                      the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



                      I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



                      They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



                      Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



                      enter image description here






                      share|improve this answer















                      The answer is:NO



                      while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
                      the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



                      I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



                      They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



                      Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



                      enter image description here







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited 2 hours ago

























                      answered 3 hours ago









                      Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli

                      44412




                      44412













                      • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

                        – Tim
                        3 hours ago











                      • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

                        – Albrecht Hügli
                        2 hours ago



















                      • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

                        – Tim
                        3 hours ago











                      • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

                        – Albrecht Hügli
                        2 hours ago

















                      The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

                      – Tim
                      3 hours ago





                      The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

                      – Tim
                      3 hours ago













                      yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

                      – Albrecht Hügli
                      2 hours ago





                      yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

                      – Albrecht Hügli
                      2 hours ago











                      0














                      "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



                      Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



                      In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



                      what is required for what



                      On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



                      Some more:
                      enter image description here



                      To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.






                      share|improve this answer


























                      • Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

                        – topo morto
                        4 hours ago






                      • 1





                        @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

                        – piiperi
                        3 hours ago
















                      0














                      "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



                      Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



                      In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



                      what is required for what



                      On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



                      Some more:
                      enter image description here



                      To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.






                      share|improve this answer


























                      • Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

                        – topo morto
                        4 hours ago






                      • 1





                        @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

                        – piiperi
                        3 hours ago














                      0












                      0








                      0







                      "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



                      Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



                      In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



                      what is required for what



                      On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



                      Some more:
                      enter image description here



                      To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.






                      share|improve this answer















                      "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



                      Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



                      In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



                      what is required for what



                      On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



                      Some more:
                      enter image description here



                      To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited 5 hours ago

























                      answered 6 hours ago









                      piiperipiiperi

                      7516




                      7516













                      • Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

                        – topo morto
                        4 hours ago






                      • 1





                        @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

                        – piiperi
                        3 hours ago



















                      • Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

                        – topo morto
                        4 hours ago






                      • 1





                        @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

                        – piiperi
                        3 hours ago

















                      Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

                      – topo morto
                      4 hours ago





                      Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

                      – topo morto
                      4 hours ago




                      1




                      1





                      @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

                      – piiperi
                      3 hours ago





                      @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

                      – piiperi
                      3 hours ago











                      0














                      A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



                      A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.






                      share|improve this answer




























                        0














                        A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



                        A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.






                        share|improve this answer


























                          0












                          0








                          0







                          A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



                          A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.






                          share|improve this answer













                          A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



                          A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered 31 mins ago









                          Heather S.Heather S.

                          3,6331320




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