Would any manned orbital launches to date have been possible (but lower) if they were launched retrograde...
$begingroup$
Manned launches have always been launched prograde to take advantage of the Earth's rotation velocity boost, and often in order to match the prograde orbit of another spacecraft for rendez-vous.
I wonder if any of the manned orbital launches to date could have reached at least a lower, short-term-stable orbit if launched in a retrograde direction, let's say with an additional 180 degrees inclination, they don't need to be zero-degrees equatorial.
I'm curious if this would have been impossible, or achievable and simply requiring the topping-off existing propellant tanks.
I have read that the launching near the equator gives the rocket more speed, but I wonder if it is at all possible to launch against the rotation.
orbital-mechanics launch physics
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Manned launches have always been launched prograde to take advantage of the Earth's rotation velocity boost, and often in order to match the prograde orbit of another spacecraft for rendez-vous.
I wonder if any of the manned orbital launches to date could have reached at least a lower, short-term-stable orbit if launched in a retrograde direction, let's say with an additional 180 degrees inclination, they don't need to be zero-degrees equatorial.
I'm curious if this would have been impossible, or achievable and simply requiring the topping-off existing propellant tanks.
I have read that the launching near the equator gives the rocket more speed, but I wonder if it is at all possible to launch against the rotation.
orbital-mechanics launch physics
New contributor
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Launches from Vandenberg sometimes go westwards to get a polar orbit. These are military recon launches. The shuttle was always launched towards the East.
$endgroup$
– zeta-band
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Related: space.stackexchange.com/q/25849/58
$endgroup$
– called2voyage♦
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
yes, Apollo. All that extra TLI $Delta v$
$endgroup$
– JCRM
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Manned launches have always been launched prograde to take advantage of the Earth's rotation velocity boost, and often in order to match the prograde orbit of another spacecraft for rendez-vous.
I wonder if any of the manned orbital launches to date could have reached at least a lower, short-term-stable orbit if launched in a retrograde direction, let's say with an additional 180 degrees inclination, they don't need to be zero-degrees equatorial.
I'm curious if this would have been impossible, or achievable and simply requiring the topping-off existing propellant tanks.
I have read that the launching near the equator gives the rocket more speed, but I wonder if it is at all possible to launch against the rotation.
orbital-mechanics launch physics
New contributor
$endgroup$
Manned launches have always been launched prograde to take advantage of the Earth's rotation velocity boost, and often in order to match the prograde orbit of another spacecraft for rendez-vous.
I wonder if any of the manned orbital launches to date could have reached at least a lower, short-term-stable orbit if launched in a retrograde direction, let's say with an additional 180 degrees inclination, they don't need to be zero-degrees equatorial.
I'm curious if this would have been impossible, or achievable and simply requiring the topping-off existing propellant tanks.
I have read that the launching near the equator gives the rocket more speed, but I wonder if it is at all possible to launch against the rotation.
orbital-mechanics launch physics
orbital-mechanics launch physics
New contributor
New contributor
edited 10 hours ago
uhoh
35.9k18126445
35.9k18126445
New contributor
asked 10 hours ago
tomtom
666
666
New contributor
New contributor
$begingroup$
Launches from Vandenberg sometimes go westwards to get a polar orbit. These are military recon launches. The shuttle was always launched towards the East.
$endgroup$
– zeta-band
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Related: space.stackexchange.com/q/25849/58
$endgroup$
– called2voyage♦
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
yes, Apollo. All that extra TLI $Delta v$
$endgroup$
– JCRM
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Launches from Vandenberg sometimes go westwards to get a polar orbit. These are military recon launches. The shuttle was always launched towards the East.
$endgroup$
– zeta-band
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Related: space.stackexchange.com/q/25849/58
$endgroup$
– called2voyage♦
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
yes, Apollo. All that extra TLI $Delta v$
$endgroup$
– JCRM
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Launches from Vandenberg sometimes go westwards to get a polar orbit. These are military recon launches. The shuttle was always launched towards the East.
$endgroup$
– zeta-band
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Launches from Vandenberg sometimes go westwards to get a polar orbit. These are military recon launches. The shuttle was always launched towards the East.
$endgroup$
– zeta-band
10 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Related: space.stackexchange.com/q/25849/58
$endgroup$
– called2voyage♦
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Related: space.stackexchange.com/q/25849/58
$endgroup$
– called2voyage♦
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
yes, Apollo. All that extra TLI $Delta v$
$endgroup$
– JCRM
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
yes, Apollo. All that extra TLI $Delta v$
$endgroup$
– JCRM
9 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
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oldest
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$begingroup$
The “westward penalty” from Kennedy/Canaveral would be about 800 m/s of delta-v, about 8-9% of the total delta-v requirement to orbit. Most crewed launchers intended for LEO to date have not had that much performance in reserve; a shortfall of only 100 m/s from LEO usually means prompt reentry.
Atlas/Mercury and Titan/Gemini could not have managed it. The boosters were completely expended to reach orbit, Gemini had little maneuvering capability of its own, and Mercury had none.
The low Earth orbit Apollo missions (Apollo 7 and 9) could have reached orbit, and even carried out something like their intended missions.
Apollo 7 was a crewed CSM on a Saturn IB booster. The CSM had substantially more than 800 m/s available, and in fact the “mode IV” abort option would use the CSM as a third stage to reach orbit if the S-IVB second stage failed. Apollo 7 did a lot of orbital maneuvering to test the CSM engine, and that would have had to be cut short if it were going to spend that much fuel on ascent, but a sizable portion of the original mission plan could have been carried out in retrograde.
Apollo 9 was a CSM/LM flight to LEO on a Saturn V; if fully fueled, the third stage would have had around 3000 m/s of delta-v capability (needed for translunar flight), so even a much lighter fuel load would suffice to go into retrograde orbit.
I believe any of the Apollo lunar missions could have gone from a retrograde Earth orbit ascent to a lunar flyby without hardware modification, abandoning the LM (or docking and extracting it very quickly) when the S-IVB ran out of fuel and completing the TLI on the CSM’s engine. The delta-v budget to enter lunar orbit and then return to Earth is around 1400 m/s. If the LM wasn’t brought along (as on Apollo 8) and both the S-IVB and CSM were fully fueled, a lunar orbit mission might even have been possible from retrograde LEO.
The space shuttle should have been able to do it if a light payload was carried. My quick-and-dirty spreadsheet estimation says it would carry something like 4 tons to retrograde LEO instead of the 27 tons possible into prograde LEO. Unlike the Saturns, the shuttle did have a West coast launch site, never used, that would have made a retrograde launch practical if it had been needed.
I don’t think the Soyuz or Long March launchers had that sort of performance margin.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
The Space Shuttle was capable of polar orbit with a reasonable payload (the Vandenberg launch site was upgraded to support Shuttle launches for this purpose, but never used), so a retrograde launch is certainly within the realm of possibility.
$endgroup$
– Mark
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm trying to imagine what would have to change in our laws, regulations, and culture before Cape Canaveral could launch rockets over the heads of the folk in Orlando and Tampa.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SolomonSlow hence the need for Vandenberg.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The problem isn't even Flordia, the problem is it goes right over Cuba. And actually, SpaceX is working on polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, the trick is they have to have automated flight termination to make sure it meets the casualty risk inherit in a launch.
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PearsonArtPhoto Solomon is talking about westward/retrograde launch, you're talking about southerly polar.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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$begingroup$
The “westward penalty” from Kennedy/Canaveral would be about 800 m/s of delta-v, about 8-9% of the total delta-v requirement to orbit. Most crewed launchers intended for LEO to date have not had that much performance in reserve; a shortfall of only 100 m/s from LEO usually means prompt reentry.
Atlas/Mercury and Titan/Gemini could not have managed it. The boosters were completely expended to reach orbit, Gemini had little maneuvering capability of its own, and Mercury had none.
The low Earth orbit Apollo missions (Apollo 7 and 9) could have reached orbit, and even carried out something like their intended missions.
Apollo 7 was a crewed CSM on a Saturn IB booster. The CSM had substantially more than 800 m/s available, and in fact the “mode IV” abort option would use the CSM as a third stage to reach orbit if the S-IVB second stage failed. Apollo 7 did a lot of orbital maneuvering to test the CSM engine, and that would have had to be cut short if it were going to spend that much fuel on ascent, but a sizable portion of the original mission plan could have been carried out in retrograde.
Apollo 9 was a CSM/LM flight to LEO on a Saturn V; if fully fueled, the third stage would have had around 3000 m/s of delta-v capability (needed for translunar flight), so even a much lighter fuel load would suffice to go into retrograde orbit.
I believe any of the Apollo lunar missions could have gone from a retrograde Earth orbit ascent to a lunar flyby without hardware modification, abandoning the LM (or docking and extracting it very quickly) when the S-IVB ran out of fuel and completing the TLI on the CSM’s engine. The delta-v budget to enter lunar orbit and then return to Earth is around 1400 m/s. If the LM wasn’t brought along (as on Apollo 8) and both the S-IVB and CSM were fully fueled, a lunar orbit mission might even have been possible from retrograde LEO.
The space shuttle should have been able to do it if a light payload was carried. My quick-and-dirty spreadsheet estimation says it would carry something like 4 tons to retrograde LEO instead of the 27 tons possible into prograde LEO. Unlike the Saturns, the shuttle did have a West coast launch site, never used, that would have made a retrograde launch practical if it had been needed.
I don’t think the Soyuz or Long March launchers had that sort of performance margin.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
The Space Shuttle was capable of polar orbit with a reasonable payload (the Vandenberg launch site was upgraded to support Shuttle launches for this purpose, but never used), so a retrograde launch is certainly within the realm of possibility.
$endgroup$
– Mark
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm trying to imagine what would have to change in our laws, regulations, and culture before Cape Canaveral could launch rockets over the heads of the folk in Orlando and Tampa.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SolomonSlow hence the need for Vandenberg.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The problem isn't even Flordia, the problem is it goes right over Cuba. And actually, SpaceX is working on polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, the trick is they have to have automated flight termination to make sure it meets the casualty risk inherit in a launch.
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PearsonArtPhoto Solomon is talking about westward/retrograde launch, you're talking about southerly polar.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
The “westward penalty” from Kennedy/Canaveral would be about 800 m/s of delta-v, about 8-9% of the total delta-v requirement to orbit. Most crewed launchers intended for LEO to date have not had that much performance in reserve; a shortfall of only 100 m/s from LEO usually means prompt reentry.
Atlas/Mercury and Titan/Gemini could not have managed it. The boosters were completely expended to reach orbit, Gemini had little maneuvering capability of its own, and Mercury had none.
The low Earth orbit Apollo missions (Apollo 7 and 9) could have reached orbit, and even carried out something like their intended missions.
Apollo 7 was a crewed CSM on a Saturn IB booster. The CSM had substantially more than 800 m/s available, and in fact the “mode IV” abort option would use the CSM as a third stage to reach orbit if the S-IVB second stage failed. Apollo 7 did a lot of orbital maneuvering to test the CSM engine, and that would have had to be cut short if it were going to spend that much fuel on ascent, but a sizable portion of the original mission plan could have been carried out in retrograde.
Apollo 9 was a CSM/LM flight to LEO on a Saturn V; if fully fueled, the third stage would have had around 3000 m/s of delta-v capability (needed for translunar flight), so even a much lighter fuel load would suffice to go into retrograde orbit.
I believe any of the Apollo lunar missions could have gone from a retrograde Earth orbit ascent to a lunar flyby without hardware modification, abandoning the LM (or docking and extracting it very quickly) when the S-IVB ran out of fuel and completing the TLI on the CSM’s engine. The delta-v budget to enter lunar orbit and then return to Earth is around 1400 m/s. If the LM wasn’t brought along (as on Apollo 8) and both the S-IVB and CSM were fully fueled, a lunar orbit mission might even have been possible from retrograde LEO.
The space shuttle should have been able to do it if a light payload was carried. My quick-and-dirty spreadsheet estimation says it would carry something like 4 tons to retrograde LEO instead of the 27 tons possible into prograde LEO. Unlike the Saturns, the shuttle did have a West coast launch site, never used, that would have made a retrograde launch practical if it had been needed.
I don’t think the Soyuz or Long March launchers had that sort of performance margin.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
The Space Shuttle was capable of polar orbit with a reasonable payload (the Vandenberg launch site was upgraded to support Shuttle launches for this purpose, but never used), so a retrograde launch is certainly within the realm of possibility.
$endgroup$
– Mark
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm trying to imagine what would have to change in our laws, regulations, and culture before Cape Canaveral could launch rockets over the heads of the folk in Orlando and Tampa.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SolomonSlow hence the need for Vandenberg.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The problem isn't even Flordia, the problem is it goes right over Cuba. And actually, SpaceX is working on polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, the trick is they have to have automated flight termination to make sure it meets the casualty risk inherit in a launch.
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PearsonArtPhoto Solomon is talking about westward/retrograde launch, you're talking about southerly polar.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
The “westward penalty” from Kennedy/Canaveral would be about 800 m/s of delta-v, about 8-9% of the total delta-v requirement to orbit. Most crewed launchers intended for LEO to date have not had that much performance in reserve; a shortfall of only 100 m/s from LEO usually means prompt reentry.
Atlas/Mercury and Titan/Gemini could not have managed it. The boosters were completely expended to reach orbit, Gemini had little maneuvering capability of its own, and Mercury had none.
The low Earth orbit Apollo missions (Apollo 7 and 9) could have reached orbit, and even carried out something like their intended missions.
Apollo 7 was a crewed CSM on a Saturn IB booster. The CSM had substantially more than 800 m/s available, and in fact the “mode IV” abort option would use the CSM as a third stage to reach orbit if the S-IVB second stage failed. Apollo 7 did a lot of orbital maneuvering to test the CSM engine, and that would have had to be cut short if it were going to spend that much fuel on ascent, but a sizable portion of the original mission plan could have been carried out in retrograde.
Apollo 9 was a CSM/LM flight to LEO on a Saturn V; if fully fueled, the third stage would have had around 3000 m/s of delta-v capability (needed for translunar flight), so even a much lighter fuel load would suffice to go into retrograde orbit.
I believe any of the Apollo lunar missions could have gone from a retrograde Earth orbit ascent to a lunar flyby without hardware modification, abandoning the LM (or docking and extracting it very quickly) when the S-IVB ran out of fuel and completing the TLI on the CSM’s engine. The delta-v budget to enter lunar orbit and then return to Earth is around 1400 m/s. If the LM wasn’t brought along (as on Apollo 8) and both the S-IVB and CSM were fully fueled, a lunar orbit mission might even have been possible from retrograde LEO.
The space shuttle should have been able to do it if a light payload was carried. My quick-and-dirty spreadsheet estimation says it would carry something like 4 tons to retrograde LEO instead of the 27 tons possible into prograde LEO. Unlike the Saturns, the shuttle did have a West coast launch site, never used, that would have made a retrograde launch practical if it had been needed.
I don’t think the Soyuz or Long March launchers had that sort of performance margin.
$endgroup$
The “westward penalty” from Kennedy/Canaveral would be about 800 m/s of delta-v, about 8-9% of the total delta-v requirement to orbit. Most crewed launchers intended for LEO to date have not had that much performance in reserve; a shortfall of only 100 m/s from LEO usually means prompt reentry.
Atlas/Mercury and Titan/Gemini could not have managed it. The boosters were completely expended to reach orbit, Gemini had little maneuvering capability of its own, and Mercury had none.
The low Earth orbit Apollo missions (Apollo 7 and 9) could have reached orbit, and even carried out something like their intended missions.
Apollo 7 was a crewed CSM on a Saturn IB booster. The CSM had substantially more than 800 m/s available, and in fact the “mode IV” abort option would use the CSM as a third stage to reach orbit if the S-IVB second stage failed. Apollo 7 did a lot of orbital maneuvering to test the CSM engine, and that would have had to be cut short if it were going to spend that much fuel on ascent, but a sizable portion of the original mission plan could have been carried out in retrograde.
Apollo 9 was a CSM/LM flight to LEO on a Saturn V; if fully fueled, the third stage would have had around 3000 m/s of delta-v capability (needed for translunar flight), so even a much lighter fuel load would suffice to go into retrograde orbit.
I believe any of the Apollo lunar missions could have gone from a retrograde Earth orbit ascent to a lunar flyby without hardware modification, abandoning the LM (or docking and extracting it very quickly) when the S-IVB ran out of fuel and completing the TLI on the CSM’s engine. The delta-v budget to enter lunar orbit and then return to Earth is around 1400 m/s. If the LM wasn’t brought along (as on Apollo 8) and both the S-IVB and CSM were fully fueled, a lunar orbit mission might even have been possible from retrograde LEO.
The space shuttle should have been able to do it if a light payload was carried. My quick-and-dirty spreadsheet estimation says it would carry something like 4 tons to retrograde LEO instead of the 27 tons possible into prograde LEO. Unlike the Saturns, the shuttle did have a West coast launch site, never used, that would have made a retrograde launch practical if it had been needed.
I don’t think the Soyuz or Long March launchers had that sort of performance margin.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
84.1k2281362
84.1k2281362
2
$begingroup$
The Space Shuttle was capable of polar orbit with a reasonable payload (the Vandenberg launch site was upgraded to support Shuttle launches for this purpose, but never used), so a retrograde launch is certainly within the realm of possibility.
$endgroup$
– Mark
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm trying to imagine what would have to change in our laws, regulations, and culture before Cape Canaveral could launch rockets over the heads of the folk in Orlando and Tampa.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SolomonSlow hence the need for Vandenberg.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The problem isn't even Flordia, the problem is it goes right over Cuba. And actually, SpaceX is working on polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, the trick is they have to have automated flight termination to make sure it meets the casualty risk inherit in a launch.
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PearsonArtPhoto Solomon is talking about westward/retrograde launch, you're talking about southerly polar.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
2
$begingroup$
The Space Shuttle was capable of polar orbit with a reasonable payload (the Vandenberg launch site was upgraded to support Shuttle launches for this purpose, but never used), so a retrograde launch is certainly within the realm of possibility.
$endgroup$
– Mark
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm trying to imagine what would have to change in our laws, regulations, and culture before Cape Canaveral could launch rockets over the heads of the folk in Orlando and Tampa.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SolomonSlow hence the need for Vandenberg.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The problem isn't even Flordia, the problem is it goes right over Cuba. And actually, SpaceX is working on polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, the trick is they have to have automated flight termination to make sure it meets the casualty risk inherit in a launch.
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PearsonArtPhoto Solomon is talking about westward/retrograde launch, you're talking about southerly polar.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
The Space Shuttle was capable of polar orbit with a reasonable payload (the Vandenberg launch site was upgraded to support Shuttle launches for this purpose, but never used), so a retrograde launch is certainly within the realm of possibility.
$endgroup$
– Mark
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
The Space Shuttle was capable of polar orbit with a reasonable payload (the Vandenberg launch site was upgraded to support Shuttle launches for this purpose, but never used), so a retrograde launch is certainly within the realm of possibility.
$endgroup$
– Mark
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm trying to imagine what would have to change in our laws, regulations, and culture before Cape Canaveral could launch rockets over the heads of the folk in Orlando and Tampa.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm trying to imagine what would have to change in our laws, regulations, and culture before Cape Canaveral could launch rockets over the heads of the folk in Orlando and Tampa.
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SolomonSlow hence the need for Vandenberg.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SolomonSlow hence the need for Vandenberg.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The problem isn't even Flordia, the problem is it goes right over Cuba. And actually, SpaceX is working on polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, the trick is they have to have automated flight termination to make sure it meets the casualty risk inherit in a launch.
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
The problem isn't even Flordia, the problem is it goes right over Cuba. And actually, SpaceX is working on polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, the trick is they have to have automated flight termination to make sure it meets the casualty risk inherit in a launch.
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PearsonArtPhoto Solomon is talking about westward/retrograde launch, you're talking about southerly polar.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PearsonArtPhoto Solomon is talking about westward/retrograde launch, you're talking about southerly polar.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
tom is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
tom is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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Launches from Vandenberg sometimes go westwards to get a polar orbit. These are military recon launches. The shuttle was always launched towards the East.
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– zeta-band
10 hours ago
1
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Related: space.stackexchange.com/q/25849/58
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– called2voyage♦
10 hours ago
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yes, Apollo. All that extra TLI $Delta v$
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– JCRM
9 hours ago