Can you use Thaumaturgy to hit someone with a door?












14












$begingroup$


My group was in this cottage gathering clues when someone kicked open the door while wielding a battle axe. I as a cleric reacted to this by using my action in order to make the now open door slam shut on his face pushing him outside using thaumaturgy:




You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




So what happens to the guy who had kicked the door?



The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Was that a readied action to someone opening a door? Were you in combat?
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I'm still unclear as to the initiative order sequence of events. You say you won initiative, but that they open the door first which allowed you to cast thaumaturgy to close it. So did you ready action expecting them to open it?
    $endgroup$
    – NautArch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    No. The dungeon master told us the guy kicked the door open and he was brandishing an axe and we should roll initiative. I won the initiative and i cast Thaumaturgy.
    $endgroup$
    – Maiko Chikyu
    6 hours ago
















14












$begingroup$


My group was in this cottage gathering clues when someone kicked open the door while wielding a battle axe. I as a cleric reacted to this by using my action in order to make the now open door slam shut on his face pushing him outside using thaumaturgy:




You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




So what happens to the guy who had kicked the door?



The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Was that a readied action to someone opening a door? Were you in combat?
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I'm still unclear as to the initiative order sequence of events. You say you won initiative, but that they open the door first which allowed you to cast thaumaturgy to close it. So did you ready action expecting them to open it?
    $endgroup$
    – NautArch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    No. The dungeon master told us the guy kicked the door open and he was brandishing an axe and we should roll initiative. I won the initiative and i cast Thaumaturgy.
    $endgroup$
    – Maiko Chikyu
    6 hours ago














14












14








14


1



$begingroup$


My group was in this cottage gathering clues when someone kicked open the door while wielding a battle axe. I as a cleric reacted to this by using my action in order to make the now open door slam shut on his face pushing him outside using thaumaturgy:




You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




So what happens to the guy who had kicked the door?



The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




My group was in this cottage gathering clues when someone kicked open the door while wielding a battle axe. I as a cleric reacted to this by using my action in order to make the now open door slam shut on his face pushing him outside using thaumaturgy:




You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




So what happens to the guy who had kicked the door?



The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.







dnd-5e spells cantrips






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 7 hours ago









V2Blast

20.3k357127




20.3k357127










asked 15 hours ago









Maiko ChikyuMaiko Chikyu

6,00141761




6,00141761








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Was that a readied action to someone opening a door? Were you in combat?
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I'm still unclear as to the initiative order sequence of events. You say you won initiative, but that they open the door first which allowed you to cast thaumaturgy to close it. So did you ready action expecting them to open it?
    $endgroup$
    – NautArch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    No. The dungeon master told us the guy kicked the door open and he was brandishing an axe and we should roll initiative. I won the initiative and i cast Thaumaturgy.
    $endgroup$
    – Maiko Chikyu
    6 hours ago














  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Was that a readied action to someone opening a door? Were you in combat?
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I'm still unclear as to the initiative order sequence of events. You say you won initiative, but that they open the door first which allowed you to cast thaumaturgy to close it. So did you ready action expecting them to open it?
    $endgroup$
    – NautArch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    No. The dungeon master told us the guy kicked the door open and he was brandishing an axe and we should roll initiative. I won the initiative and i cast Thaumaturgy.
    $endgroup$
    – Maiko Chikyu
    6 hours ago








4




4




$begingroup$
Was that a readied action to someone opening a door? Were you in combat?
$endgroup$
– AntiDrondert
12 hours ago




$begingroup$
Was that a readied action to someone opening a door? Were you in combat?
$endgroup$
– AntiDrondert
12 hours ago












$begingroup$
I'm still unclear as to the initiative order sequence of events. You say you won initiative, but that they open the door first which allowed you to cast thaumaturgy to close it. So did you ready action expecting them to open it?
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
I'm still unclear as to the initiative order sequence of events. You say you won initiative, but that they open the door first which allowed you to cast thaumaturgy to close it. So did you ready action expecting them to open it?
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
No. The dungeon master told us the guy kicked the door open and he was brandishing an axe and we should roll initiative. I won the initiative and i cast Thaumaturgy.
$endgroup$
– Maiko Chikyu
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
No. The dungeon master told us the guy kicked the door open and he was brandishing an axe and we should roll initiative. I won the initiative and i cast Thaumaturgy.
$endgroup$
– Maiko Chikyu
6 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















13












$begingroup$

The rules don't say, thus it is up to the DM



Thaumaturgy only has this to say about the door closing effect:




You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




Now, 5e spells are designed to do only the things that they say in the spell description. However, in this case, that doesn't really help settle the dilemma. Does the door shut, regardless of obstacles because the spell says that the door shuts? Or will obstacles prevent the door from shutting because there is nothing to indicate that the door slamming shut is in any way immune to the effects of normal physics with respect to things blocking it?



The thing is, the rules don't say. And either ruling, when applied uniformly, can lead to nonsensical results. For example, the door flinging enormous boulders out of the way to close.



And that is another thing 5e spells are designed for. Many spells are written in language that purposefully doesn't try to cover every detail or circumstance instead choosing to leave it up to the DM to adjudicate the results in those cases.



This is one of those cases. Ask your DM.



Reasonable ruling: it acts like a normal door slammed by a normal person



The way I would rule it at my table is that the door is not imbued with any kind of supernatural strength, but instead is simply closed as if I had slammed it myself.



So, what would happen to the guy in the door? It would depend on the exact circumstances of where they where, but if they were in enough to block the door, likely the only thing it would do to them is stub their toe or bruise their nose (not enough to do HP damage) just as a normal slammed door would do and the door would remain ajar.



This is my ruling that I would probably make a my table. It makes sense to me because we all know how doors normally work and thus it makes it easy to keep my rulings consistent and reasonable.



Your DM should consider what option is best fit for their table that will make sense to them and maximise fun.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    If the door will shut regardless of what's in it's path with a speed determined by the caster, I imagine a group trying to conjure up a massive door just to beat a particularly tough opponent by launching it to the other hemisphere, using the door as a relativistically implausible catapult. Good thing there's a DM to step in.
    $endgroup$
    – Mast
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mast "with a speed determined by the caster" -- no, it closes instantaneously. Which is the same speed in 5e D&D that thrown axes fly across rooms, people talk, and (most) falling happens at.
    $endgroup$
    – Yakk
    5 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    "not enough to do HP damage" I guess this depends on your definition of "slammed" but having been both punched and hit by doors IRL, I am quite certain that I would grant slamming doors damage greater than or equal to unarmed attacks. Improvised weapon 1d4 sounds more realistic to me.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @GrandOpener And at your table that might make sense. I encourage every DM to make the ruling that seems the most fun and appropriate to the situation, campaign, and players.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Agreed that everyone should do what is the most fun for their game. It might not be dramatically appropriate for heroes to be hurt by mundane things like doors. Or a DM might decide that allowing thaumaturgy to do damage isn't game balance appropriate for his/her campaign. I just wanted to assert that if our model of what should happen is what "a normal slammed door would do," improvised weapon damage is probably the most simulation appropriate.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago



















5












$begingroup$

Not much happens to the guy in the door



As spells only do what they say they do, what happens when you try to slam the door shut with someone standing in them? The door does not shut. Will it be painful for them? Maybe. Will it do any damage? No, the spell would say so. Will it smack into their face? Depends on where they stand – I would presume that after kicking the door open, they are well on the way through that door. Would it have any mechanical effect if it did? No, see above. (I assume the door opens into the room; in any case the it may also be destroyed by the aforementioned kicking in which case there is not much to use the spell on.)



Obviously, this is a rather strict, RAW reading. Your DM may rule otherwise, allowing for fun consequences.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 9




    $begingroup$
    If spells only do what they say they do, would not the door slam shot regardless of obstacle (as there is no qualifier on the description)
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    13 hours ago






  • 8




    $begingroup$
    "The door slams shut, period. The barbarian charging through is bisected, vertically, as he is caught in the destructive path that is thaumaturgy" </s>
    $endgroup$
    – goodguy5
    13 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @DavidCoffron I see what you mean, but the way I interpret this is if I ask you to slam the door, you can do that and if there is any obstacle, you will hit it. Does not mean that the door will end up closed. I can see that this is not a perfect interpretation since the wording is actualy "slam shut", but since there is no perfect non-game-breaking solution I would stick with the narrative spirit of the spell.
    $endgroup$
    – J.E
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @DavidCoffron Yes. However, spells do not "only do what they say they do" because that would lead to insane results like being able to slam a door shut while someone's standing in the way.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    10 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "shut" is a qualifier for where the path terminates. Resting a door against a heavily breathing barbarian is not "shut." Either the door moves the barbarian (which it doesn't say it should) or the door does not shut (which it does say it should). In no case is it possible for the spell to do exactly what it says and nothing more.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago



















5












$begingroup$

You can try anything, the DM will narrate the result



Based on the core model of play being: 1. The DM describes the environment; 2. The players describe what they want to do; 3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions(Basic Rules, p. 4), a recommended ruling is to apply opposed ability checks for a mini-shove.




The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.




This case looks like a way to use the cantrip's ability to slam the door shut in a tactical way without trying to turn that spell into a weapon/damage causing spell - none of its features indicate that it damages opponents. The opponent should get a chance to resist the effects since he's already in the doorway.



In order to see if the door slams in the opponent's face and closes (which would push him back to 'just outside the door', use the contest rules. A full "shove" action (knock the opponent back 5') does not seem appropriate for what is being attempted.




Contests

Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly
opposed to another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to
do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to
snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor. This situation
also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from
accomplishing a goal—for example, when a monster tries to force open a
door that an adventurer is holding closed.




The situation you describe is very similar to this. A contest is an opposed ability check. This does not seem to be a case where an automatic win should be granted to slam the door. There needs to be a chance that the door bounces off of the guy with the ax, and does not knock him back.



How to adjudicate the contest: oppose the cleric's spell casting DC with the opponent's Athletics(Strength) ability check. The outcome is that either the cleric succeeds, or if the opponent is strong enough, or quick enough, to resist the door slamming in his face. Tie goes to the guy in the doorway




If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest




Discuss this with your DM



This is a case where rulings over rules, a 5e design paradigm, can work to make the game fun. Rewarding innovative use of game features - any DM ought to be on the lookout for that chance. In this case, the DM might offer advantage to the guy with the ax, or to the cleric, depending on how the rest of the situation is set up.



Rules As Fun-embrace it.






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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

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    13












    $begingroup$

    The rules don't say, thus it is up to the DM



    Thaumaturgy only has this to say about the door closing effect:




    You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




    Now, 5e spells are designed to do only the things that they say in the spell description. However, in this case, that doesn't really help settle the dilemma. Does the door shut, regardless of obstacles because the spell says that the door shuts? Or will obstacles prevent the door from shutting because there is nothing to indicate that the door slamming shut is in any way immune to the effects of normal physics with respect to things blocking it?



    The thing is, the rules don't say. And either ruling, when applied uniformly, can lead to nonsensical results. For example, the door flinging enormous boulders out of the way to close.



    And that is another thing 5e spells are designed for. Many spells are written in language that purposefully doesn't try to cover every detail or circumstance instead choosing to leave it up to the DM to adjudicate the results in those cases.



    This is one of those cases. Ask your DM.



    Reasonable ruling: it acts like a normal door slammed by a normal person



    The way I would rule it at my table is that the door is not imbued with any kind of supernatural strength, but instead is simply closed as if I had slammed it myself.



    So, what would happen to the guy in the door? It would depend on the exact circumstances of where they where, but if they were in enough to block the door, likely the only thing it would do to them is stub their toe or bruise their nose (not enough to do HP damage) just as a normal slammed door would do and the door would remain ajar.



    This is my ruling that I would probably make a my table. It makes sense to me because we all know how doors normally work and thus it makes it easy to keep my rulings consistent and reasonable.



    Your DM should consider what option is best fit for their table that will make sense to them and maximise fun.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 3




      $begingroup$
      If the door will shut regardless of what's in it's path with a speed determined by the caster, I imagine a group trying to conjure up a massive door just to beat a particularly tough opponent by launching it to the other hemisphere, using the door as a relativistically implausible catapult. Good thing there's a DM to step in.
      $endgroup$
      – Mast
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Mast "with a speed determined by the caster" -- no, it closes instantaneously. Which is the same speed in 5e D&D that thrown axes fly across rooms, people talk, and (most) falling happens at.
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      5 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      "not enough to do HP damage" I guess this depends on your definition of "slammed" but having been both punched and hit by doors IRL, I am quite certain that I would grant slamming doors damage greater than or equal to unarmed attacks. Improvised weapon 1d4 sounds more realistic to me.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @GrandOpener And at your table that might make sense. I encourage every DM to make the ruling that seems the most fun and appropriate to the situation, campaign, and players.
      $endgroup$
      – Rubiksmoose
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Agreed that everyone should do what is the most fun for their game. It might not be dramatically appropriate for heroes to be hurt by mundane things like doors. Or a DM might decide that allowing thaumaturgy to do damage isn't game balance appropriate for his/her campaign. I just wanted to assert that if our model of what should happen is what "a normal slammed door would do," improvised weapon damage is probably the most simulation appropriate.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago
















    13












    $begingroup$

    The rules don't say, thus it is up to the DM



    Thaumaturgy only has this to say about the door closing effect:




    You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




    Now, 5e spells are designed to do only the things that they say in the spell description. However, in this case, that doesn't really help settle the dilemma. Does the door shut, regardless of obstacles because the spell says that the door shuts? Or will obstacles prevent the door from shutting because there is nothing to indicate that the door slamming shut is in any way immune to the effects of normal physics with respect to things blocking it?



    The thing is, the rules don't say. And either ruling, when applied uniformly, can lead to nonsensical results. For example, the door flinging enormous boulders out of the way to close.



    And that is another thing 5e spells are designed for. Many spells are written in language that purposefully doesn't try to cover every detail or circumstance instead choosing to leave it up to the DM to adjudicate the results in those cases.



    This is one of those cases. Ask your DM.



    Reasonable ruling: it acts like a normal door slammed by a normal person



    The way I would rule it at my table is that the door is not imbued with any kind of supernatural strength, but instead is simply closed as if I had slammed it myself.



    So, what would happen to the guy in the door? It would depend on the exact circumstances of where they where, but if they were in enough to block the door, likely the only thing it would do to them is stub their toe or bruise their nose (not enough to do HP damage) just as a normal slammed door would do and the door would remain ajar.



    This is my ruling that I would probably make a my table. It makes sense to me because we all know how doors normally work and thus it makes it easy to keep my rulings consistent and reasonable.



    Your DM should consider what option is best fit for their table that will make sense to them and maximise fun.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 3




      $begingroup$
      If the door will shut regardless of what's in it's path with a speed determined by the caster, I imagine a group trying to conjure up a massive door just to beat a particularly tough opponent by launching it to the other hemisphere, using the door as a relativistically implausible catapult. Good thing there's a DM to step in.
      $endgroup$
      – Mast
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Mast "with a speed determined by the caster" -- no, it closes instantaneously. Which is the same speed in 5e D&D that thrown axes fly across rooms, people talk, and (most) falling happens at.
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      5 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      "not enough to do HP damage" I guess this depends on your definition of "slammed" but having been both punched and hit by doors IRL, I am quite certain that I would grant slamming doors damage greater than or equal to unarmed attacks. Improvised weapon 1d4 sounds more realistic to me.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @GrandOpener And at your table that might make sense. I encourage every DM to make the ruling that seems the most fun and appropriate to the situation, campaign, and players.
      $endgroup$
      – Rubiksmoose
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Agreed that everyone should do what is the most fun for their game. It might not be dramatically appropriate for heroes to be hurt by mundane things like doors. Or a DM might decide that allowing thaumaturgy to do damage isn't game balance appropriate for his/her campaign. I just wanted to assert that if our model of what should happen is what "a normal slammed door would do," improvised weapon damage is probably the most simulation appropriate.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago














    13












    13








    13





    $begingroup$

    The rules don't say, thus it is up to the DM



    Thaumaturgy only has this to say about the door closing effect:




    You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




    Now, 5e spells are designed to do only the things that they say in the spell description. However, in this case, that doesn't really help settle the dilemma. Does the door shut, regardless of obstacles because the spell says that the door shuts? Or will obstacles prevent the door from shutting because there is nothing to indicate that the door slamming shut is in any way immune to the effects of normal physics with respect to things blocking it?



    The thing is, the rules don't say. And either ruling, when applied uniformly, can lead to nonsensical results. For example, the door flinging enormous boulders out of the way to close.



    And that is another thing 5e spells are designed for. Many spells are written in language that purposefully doesn't try to cover every detail or circumstance instead choosing to leave it up to the DM to adjudicate the results in those cases.



    This is one of those cases. Ask your DM.



    Reasonable ruling: it acts like a normal door slammed by a normal person



    The way I would rule it at my table is that the door is not imbued with any kind of supernatural strength, but instead is simply closed as if I had slammed it myself.



    So, what would happen to the guy in the door? It would depend on the exact circumstances of where they where, but if they were in enough to block the door, likely the only thing it would do to them is stub their toe or bruise their nose (not enough to do HP damage) just as a normal slammed door would do and the door would remain ajar.



    This is my ruling that I would probably make a my table. It makes sense to me because we all know how doors normally work and thus it makes it easy to keep my rulings consistent and reasonable.



    Your DM should consider what option is best fit for their table that will make sense to them and maximise fun.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    The rules don't say, thus it is up to the DM



    Thaumaturgy only has this to say about the door closing effect:




    You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.




    Now, 5e spells are designed to do only the things that they say in the spell description. However, in this case, that doesn't really help settle the dilemma. Does the door shut, regardless of obstacles because the spell says that the door shuts? Or will obstacles prevent the door from shutting because there is nothing to indicate that the door slamming shut is in any way immune to the effects of normal physics with respect to things blocking it?



    The thing is, the rules don't say. And either ruling, when applied uniformly, can lead to nonsensical results. For example, the door flinging enormous boulders out of the way to close.



    And that is another thing 5e spells are designed for. Many spells are written in language that purposefully doesn't try to cover every detail or circumstance instead choosing to leave it up to the DM to adjudicate the results in those cases.



    This is one of those cases. Ask your DM.



    Reasonable ruling: it acts like a normal door slammed by a normal person



    The way I would rule it at my table is that the door is not imbued with any kind of supernatural strength, but instead is simply closed as if I had slammed it myself.



    So, what would happen to the guy in the door? It would depend on the exact circumstances of where they where, but if they were in enough to block the door, likely the only thing it would do to them is stub their toe or bruise their nose (not enough to do HP damage) just as a normal slammed door would do and the door would remain ajar.



    This is my ruling that I would probably make a my table. It makes sense to me because we all know how doors normally work and thus it makes it easy to keep my rulings consistent and reasonable.



    Your DM should consider what option is best fit for their table that will make sense to them and maximise fun.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 9 hours ago

























    answered 10 hours ago









    RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

    50.2k7247380




    50.2k7247380








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      If the door will shut regardless of what's in it's path with a speed determined by the caster, I imagine a group trying to conjure up a massive door just to beat a particularly tough opponent by launching it to the other hemisphere, using the door as a relativistically implausible catapult. Good thing there's a DM to step in.
      $endgroup$
      – Mast
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Mast "with a speed determined by the caster" -- no, it closes instantaneously. Which is the same speed in 5e D&D that thrown axes fly across rooms, people talk, and (most) falling happens at.
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      5 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      "not enough to do HP damage" I guess this depends on your definition of "slammed" but having been both punched and hit by doors IRL, I am quite certain that I would grant slamming doors damage greater than or equal to unarmed attacks. Improvised weapon 1d4 sounds more realistic to me.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @GrandOpener And at your table that might make sense. I encourage every DM to make the ruling that seems the most fun and appropriate to the situation, campaign, and players.
      $endgroup$
      – Rubiksmoose
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Agreed that everyone should do what is the most fun for their game. It might not be dramatically appropriate for heroes to be hurt by mundane things like doors. Or a DM might decide that allowing thaumaturgy to do damage isn't game balance appropriate for his/her campaign. I just wanted to assert that if our model of what should happen is what "a normal slammed door would do," improvised weapon damage is probably the most simulation appropriate.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago














    • 3




      $begingroup$
      If the door will shut regardless of what's in it's path with a speed determined by the caster, I imagine a group trying to conjure up a massive door just to beat a particularly tough opponent by launching it to the other hemisphere, using the door as a relativistically implausible catapult. Good thing there's a DM to step in.
      $endgroup$
      – Mast
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Mast "with a speed determined by the caster" -- no, it closes instantaneously. Which is the same speed in 5e D&D that thrown axes fly across rooms, people talk, and (most) falling happens at.
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      5 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      "not enough to do HP damage" I guess this depends on your definition of "slammed" but having been both punched and hit by doors IRL, I am quite certain that I would grant slamming doors damage greater than or equal to unarmed attacks. Improvised weapon 1d4 sounds more realistic to me.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @GrandOpener And at your table that might make sense. I encourage every DM to make the ruling that seems the most fun and appropriate to the situation, campaign, and players.
      $endgroup$
      – Rubiksmoose
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Agreed that everyone should do what is the most fun for their game. It might not be dramatically appropriate for heroes to be hurt by mundane things like doors. Or a DM might decide that allowing thaumaturgy to do damage isn't game balance appropriate for his/her campaign. I just wanted to assert that if our model of what should happen is what "a normal slammed door would do," improvised weapon damage is probably the most simulation appropriate.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago








    3




    3




    $begingroup$
    If the door will shut regardless of what's in it's path with a speed determined by the caster, I imagine a group trying to conjure up a massive door just to beat a particularly tough opponent by launching it to the other hemisphere, using the door as a relativistically implausible catapult. Good thing there's a DM to step in.
    $endgroup$
    – Mast
    7 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    If the door will shut regardless of what's in it's path with a speed determined by the caster, I imagine a group trying to conjure up a massive door just to beat a particularly tough opponent by launching it to the other hemisphere, using the door as a relativistically implausible catapult. Good thing there's a DM to step in.
    $endgroup$
    – Mast
    7 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @Mast "with a speed determined by the caster" -- no, it closes instantaneously. Which is the same speed in 5e D&D that thrown axes fly across rooms, people talk, and (most) falling happens at.
    $endgroup$
    – Yakk
    5 hours ago






    $begingroup$
    @Mast "with a speed determined by the caster" -- no, it closes instantaneously. Which is the same speed in 5e D&D that thrown axes fly across rooms, people talk, and (most) falling happens at.
    $endgroup$
    – Yakk
    5 hours ago














    $begingroup$
    "not enough to do HP damage" I guess this depends on your definition of "slammed" but having been both punched and hit by doors IRL, I am quite certain that I would grant slamming doors damage greater than or equal to unarmed attacks. Improvised weapon 1d4 sounds more realistic to me.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    "not enough to do HP damage" I guess this depends on your definition of "slammed" but having been both punched and hit by doors IRL, I am quite certain that I would grant slamming doors damage greater than or equal to unarmed attacks. Improvised weapon 1d4 sounds more realistic to me.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @GrandOpener And at your table that might make sense. I encourage every DM to make the ruling that seems the most fun and appropriate to the situation, campaign, and players.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    5 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @GrandOpener And at your table that might make sense. I encourage every DM to make the ruling that seems the most fun and appropriate to the situation, campaign, and players.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    5 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    Agreed that everyone should do what is the most fun for their game. It might not be dramatically appropriate for heroes to be hurt by mundane things like doors. Or a DM might decide that allowing thaumaturgy to do damage isn't game balance appropriate for his/her campaign. I just wanted to assert that if our model of what should happen is what "a normal slammed door would do," improvised weapon damage is probably the most simulation appropriate.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Agreed that everyone should do what is the most fun for their game. It might not be dramatically appropriate for heroes to be hurt by mundane things like doors. Or a DM might decide that allowing thaumaturgy to do damage isn't game balance appropriate for his/her campaign. I just wanted to assert that if our model of what should happen is what "a normal slammed door would do," improvised weapon damage is probably the most simulation appropriate.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago













    5












    $begingroup$

    Not much happens to the guy in the door



    As spells only do what they say they do, what happens when you try to slam the door shut with someone standing in them? The door does not shut. Will it be painful for them? Maybe. Will it do any damage? No, the spell would say so. Will it smack into their face? Depends on where they stand – I would presume that after kicking the door open, they are well on the way through that door. Would it have any mechanical effect if it did? No, see above. (I assume the door opens into the room; in any case the it may also be destroyed by the aforementioned kicking in which case there is not much to use the spell on.)



    Obviously, this is a rather strict, RAW reading. Your DM may rule otherwise, allowing for fun consequences.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 9




      $begingroup$
      If spells only do what they say they do, would not the door slam shot regardless of obstacle (as there is no qualifier on the description)
      $endgroup$
      – David Coffron
      13 hours ago






    • 8




      $begingroup$
      "The door slams shut, period. The barbarian charging through is bisected, vertically, as he is caught in the destructive path that is thaumaturgy" </s>
      $endgroup$
      – goodguy5
      13 hours ago






    • 4




      $begingroup$
      @DavidCoffron I see what you mean, but the way I interpret this is if I ask you to slam the door, you can do that and if there is any obstacle, you will hit it. Does not mean that the door will end up closed. I can see that this is not a perfect interpretation since the wording is actualy "slam shut", but since there is no perfect non-game-breaking solution I would stick with the narrative spirit of the spell.
      $endgroup$
      – J.E
      12 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DavidCoffron Yes. However, spells do not "only do what they say they do" because that would lead to insane results like being able to slam a door shut while someone's standing in the way.
      $endgroup$
      – Mark Wells
      10 hours ago






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      "shut" is a qualifier for where the path terminates. Resting a door against a heavily breathing barbarian is not "shut." Either the door moves the barbarian (which it doesn't say it should) or the door does not shut (which it does say it should). In no case is it possible for the spell to do exactly what it says and nothing more.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago
















    5












    $begingroup$

    Not much happens to the guy in the door



    As spells only do what they say they do, what happens when you try to slam the door shut with someone standing in them? The door does not shut. Will it be painful for them? Maybe. Will it do any damage? No, the spell would say so. Will it smack into their face? Depends on where they stand – I would presume that after kicking the door open, they are well on the way through that door. Would it have any mechanical effect if it did? No, see above. (I assume the door opens into the room; in any case the it may also be destroyed by the aforementioned kicking in which case there is not much to use the spell on.)



    Obviously, this is a rather strict, RAW reading. Your DM may rule otherwise, allowing for fun consequences.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 9




      $begingroup$
      If spells only do what they say they do, would not the door slam shot regardless of obstacle (as there is no qualifier on the description)
      $endgroup$
      – David Coffron
      13 hours ago






    • 8




      $begingroup$
      "The door slams shut, period. The barbarian charging through is bisected, vertically, as he is caught in the destructive path that is thaumaturgy" </s>
      $endgroup$
      – goodguy5
      13 hours ago






    • 4




      $begingroup$
      @DavidCoffron I see what you mean, but the way I interpret this is if I ask you to slam the door, you can do that and if there is any obstacle, you will hit it. Does not mean that the door will end up closed. I can see that this is not a perfect interpretation since the wording is actualy "slam shut", but since there is no perfect non-game-breaking solution I would stick with the narrative spirit of the spell.
      $endgroup$
      – J.E
      12 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DavidCoffron Yes. However, spells do not "only do what they say they do" because that would lead to insane results like being able to slam a door shut while someone's standing in the way.
      $endgroup$
      – Mark Wells
      10 hours ago






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      "shut" is a qualifier for where the path terminates. Resting a door against a heavily breathing barbarian is not "shut." Either the door moves the barbarian (which it doesn't say it should) or the door does not shut (which it does say it should). In no case is it possible for the spell to do exactly what it says and nothing more.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago














    5












    5








    5





    $begingroup$

    Not much happens to the guy in the door



    As spells only do what they say they do, what happens when you try to slam the door shut with someone standing in them? The door does not shut. Will it be painful for them? Maybe. Will it do any damage? No, the spell would say so. Will it smack into their face? Depends on where they stand – I would presume that after kicking the door open, they are well on the way through that door. Would it have any mechanical effect if it did? No, see above. (I assume the door opens into the room; in any case the it may also be destroyed by the aforementioned kicking in which case there is not much to use the spell on.)



    Obviously, this is a rather strict, RAW reading. Your DM may rule otherwise, allowing for fun consequences.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Not much happens to the guy in the door



    As spells only do what they say they do, what happens when you try to slam the door shut with someone standing in them? The door does not shut. Will it be painful for them? Maybe. Will it do any damage? No, the spell would say so. Will it smack into their face? Depends on where they stand – I would presume that after kicking the door open, they are well on the way through that door. Would it have any mechanical effect if it did? No, see above. (I assume the door opens into the room; in any case the it may also be destroyed by the aforementioned kicking in which case there is not much to use the spell on.)



    Obviously, this is a rather strict, RAW reading. Your DM may rule otherwise, allowing for fun consequences.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 10 hours ago









    Rubiksmoose

    50.2k7247380




    50.2k7247380










    answered 13 hours ago









    J.EJ.E

    3,480934




    3,480934








    • 9




      $begingroup$
      If spells only do what they say they do, would not the door slam shot regardless of obstacle (as there is no qualifier on the description)
      $endgroup$
      – David Coffron
      13 hours ago






    • 8




      $begingroup$
      "The door slams shut, period. The barbarian charging through is bisected, vertically, as he is caught in the destructive path that is thaumaturgy" </s>
      $endgroup$
      – goodguy5
      13 hours ago






    • 4




      $begingroup$
      @DavidCoffron I see what you mean, but the way I interpret this is if I ask you to slam the door, you can do that and if there is any obstacle, you will hit it. Does not mean that the door will end up closed. I can see that this is not a perfect interpretation since the wording is actualy "slam shut", but since there is no perfect non-game-breaking solution I would stick with the narrative spirit of the spell.
      $endgroup$
      – J.E
      12 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DavidCoffron Yes. However, spells do not "only do what they say they do" because that would lead to insane results like being able to slam a door shut while someone's standing in the way.
      $endgroup$
      – Mark Wells
      10 hours ago






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      "shut" is a qualifier for where the path terminates. Resting a door against a heavily breathing barbarian is not "shut." Either the door moves the barbarian (which it doesn't say it should) or the door does not shut (which it does say it should). In no case is it possible for the spell to do exactly what it says and nothing more.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago














    • 9




      $begingroup$
      If spells only do what they say they do, would not the door slam shot regardless of obstacle (as there is no qualifier on the description)
      $endgroup$
      – David Coffron
      13 hours ago






    • 8




      $begingroup$
      "The door slams shut, period. The barbarian charging through is bisected, vertically, as he is caught in the destructive path that is thaumaturgy" </s>
      $endgroup$
      – goodguy5
      13 hours ago






    • 4




      $begingroup$
      @DavidCoffron I see what you mean, but the way I interpret this is if I ask you to slam the door, you can do that and if there is any obstacle, you will hit it. Does not mean that the door will end up closed. I can see that this is not a perfect interpretation since the wording is actualy "slam shut", but since there is no perfect non-game-breaking solution I would stick with the narrative spirit of the spell.
      $endgroup$
      – J.E
      12 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DavidCoffron Yes. However, spells do not "only do what they say they do" because that would lead to insane results like being able to slam a door shut while someone's standing in the way.
      $endgroup$
      – Mark Wells
      10 hours ago






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      "shut" is a qualifier for where the path terminates. Resting a door against a heavily breathing barbarian is not "shut." Either the door moves the barbarian (which it doesn't say it should) or the door does not shut (which it does say it should). In no case is it possible for the spell to do exactly what it says and nothing more.
      $endgroup$
      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago








    9




    9




    $begingroup$
    If spells only do what they say they do, would not the door slam shot regardless of obstacle (as there is no qualifier on the description)
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    13 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    If spells only do what they say they do, would not the door slam shot regardless of obstacle (as there is no qualifier on the description)
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    13 hours ago




    8




    8




    $begingroup$
    "The door slams shut, period. The barbarian charging through is bisected, vertically, as he is caught in the destructive path that is thaumaturgy" </s>
    $endgroup$
    – goodguy5
    13 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    "The door slams shut, period. The barbarian charging through is bisected, vertically, as he is caught in the destructive path that is thaumaturgy" </s>
    $endgroup$
    – goodguy5
    13 hours ago




    4




    4




    $begingroup$
    @DavidCoffron I see what you mean, but the way I interpret this is if I ask you to slam the door, you can do that and if there is any obstacle, you will hit it. Does not mean that the door will end up closed. I can see that this is not a perfect interpretation since the wording is actualy "slam shut", but since there is no perfect non-game-breaking solution I would stick with the narrative spirit of the spell.
    $endgroup$
    – J.E
    12 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @DavidCoffron I see what you mean, but the way I interpret this is if I ask you to slam the door, you can do that and if there is any obstacle, you will hit it. Does not mean that the door will end up closed. I can see that this is not a perfect interpretation since the wording is actualy "slam shut", but since there is no perfect non-game-breaking solution I would stick with the narrative spirit of the spell.
    $endgroup$
    – J.E
    12 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @DavidCoffron Yes. However, spells do not "only do what they say they do" because that would lead to insane results like being able to slam a door shut while someone's standing in the way.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    10 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @DavidCoffron Yes. However, spells do not "only do what they say they do" because that would lead to insane results like being able to slam a door shut while someone's standing in the way.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    10 hours ago




    2




    2




    $begingroup$
    "shut" is a qualifier for where the path terminates. Resting a door against a heavily breathing barbarian is not "shut." Either the door moves the barbarian (which it doesn't say it should) or the door does not shut (which it does say it should). In no case is it possible for the spell to do exactly what it says and nothing more.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    "shut" is a qualifier for where the path terminates. Resting a door against a heavily breathing barbarian is not "shut." Either the door moves the barbarian (which it doesn't say it should) or the door does not shut (which it does say it should). In no case is it possible for the spell to do exactly what it says and nothing more.
    $endgroup$
    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago











    5












    $begingroup$

    You can try anything, the DM will narrate the result



    Based on the core model of play being: 1. The DM describes the environment; 2. The players describe what they want to do; 3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions(Basic Rules, p. 4), a recommended ruling is to apply opposed ability checks for a mini-shove.




    The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.




    This case looks like a way to use the cantrip's ability to slam the door shut in a tactical way without trying to turn that spell into a weapon/damage causing spell - none of its features indicate that it damages opponents. The opponent should get a chance to resist the effects since he's already in the doorway.



    In order to see if the door slams in the opponent's face and closes (which would push him back to 'just outside the door', use the contest rules. A full "shove" action (knock the opponent back 5') does not seem appropriate for what is being attempted.




    Contests

    Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly
    opposed to another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to
    do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to
    snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor. This situation
    also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from
    accomplishing a goal—for example, when a monster tries to force open a
    door that an adventurer is holding closed.




    The situation you describe is very similar to this. A contest is an opposed ability check. This does not seem to be a case where an automatic win should be granted to slam the door. There needs to be a chance that the door bounces off of the guy with the ax, and does not knock him back.



    How to adjudicate the contest: oppose the cleric's spell casting DC with the opponent's Athletics(Strength) ability check. The outcome is that either the cleric succeeds, or if the opponent is strong enough, or quick enough, to resist the door slamming in his face. Tie goes to the guy in the doorway




    If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest




    Discuss this with your DM



    This is a case where rulings over rules, a 5e design paradigm, can work to make the game fun. Rewarding innovative use of game features - any DM ought to be on the lookout for that chance. In this case, the DM might offer advantage to the guy with the ax, or to the cleric, depending on how the rest of the situation is set up.



    Rules As Fun-embrace it.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$


















      5












      $begingroup$

      You can try anything, the DM will narrate the result



      Based on the core model of play being: 1. The DM describes the environment; 2. The players describe what they want to do; 3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions(Basic Rules, p. 4), a recommended ruling is to apply opposed ability checks for a mini-shove.




      The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.




      This case looks like a way to use the cantrip's ability to slam the door shut in a tactical way without trying to turn that spell into a weapon/damage causing spell - none of its features indicate that it damages opponents. The opponent should get a chance to resist the effects since he's already in the doorway.



      In order to see if the door slams in the opponent's face and closes (which would push him back to 'just outside the door', use the contest rules. A full "shove" action (knock the opponent back 5') does not seem appropriate for what is being attempted.




      Contests

      Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly
      opposed to another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to
      do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to
      snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor. This situation
      also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from
      accomplishing a goal—for example, when a monster tries to force open a
      door that an adventurer is holding closed.




      The situation you describe is very similar to this. A contest is an opposed ability check. This does not seem to be a case where an automatic win should be granted to slam the door. There needs to be a chance that the door bounces off of the guy with the ax, and does not knock him back.



      How to adjudicate the contest: oppose the cleric's spell casting DC with the opponent's Athletics(Strength) ability check. The outcome is that either the cleric succeeds, or if the opponent is strong enough, or quick enough, to resist the door slamming in his face. Tie goes to the guy in the doorway




      If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest




      Discuss this with your DM



      This is a case where rulings over rules, a 5e design paradigm, can work to make the game fun. Rewarding innovative use of game features - any DM ought to be on the lookout for that chance. In this case, the DM might offer advantage to the guy with the ax, or to the cleric, depending on how the rest of the situation is set up.



      Rules As Fun-embrace it.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$
















        5












        5








        5





        $begingroup$

        You can try anything, the DM will narrate the result



        Based on the core model of play being: 1. The DM describes the environment; 2. The players describe what they want to do; 3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions(Basic Rules, p. 4), a recommended ruling is to apply opposed ability checks for a mini-shove.




        The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.




        This case looks like a way to use the cantrip's ability to slam the door shut in a tactical way without trying to turn that spell into a weapon/damage causing spell - none of its features indicate that it damages opponents. The opponent should get a chance to resist the effects since he's already in the doorway.



        In order to see if the door slams in the opponent's face and closes (which would push him back to 'just outside the door', use the contest rules. A full "shove" action (knock the opponent back 5') does not seem appropriate for what is being attempted.




        Contests

        Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly
        opposed to another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to
        do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to
        snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor. This situation
        also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from
        accomplishing a goal—for example, when a monster tries to force open a
        door that an adventurer is holding closed.




        The situation you describe is very similar to this. A contest is an opposed ability check. This does not seem to be a case where an automatic win should be granted to slam the door. There needs to be a chance that the door bounces off of the guy with the ax, and does not knock him back.



        How to adjudicate the contest: oppose the cleric's spell casting DC with the opponent's Athletics(Strength) ability check. The outcome is that either the cleric succeeds, or if the opponent is strong enough, or quick enough, to resist the door slamming in his face. Tie goes to the guy in the doorway




        If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest




        Discuss this with your DM



        This is a case where rulings over rules, a 5e design paradigm, can work to make the game fun. Rewarding innovative use of game features - any DM ought to be on the lookout for that chance. In this case, the DM might offer advantage to the guy with the ax, or to the cleric, depending on how the rest of the situation is set up.



        Rules As Fun-embrace it.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        You can try anything, the DM will narrate the result



        Based on the core model of play being: 1. The DM describes the environment; 2. The players describe what they want to do; 3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions(Basic Rules, p. 4), a recommended ruling is to apply opposed ability checks for a mini-shove.




        The guy was standing right at the entrance breathing heavily and I won initiative.




        This case looks like a way to use the cantrip's ability to slam the door shut in a tactical way without trying to turn that spell into a weapon/damage causing spell - none of its features indicate that it damages opponents. The opponent should get a chance to resist the effects since he's already in the doorway.



        In order to see if the door slams in the opponent's face and closes (which would push him back to 'just outside the door', use the contest rules. A full "shove" action (knock the opponent back 5') does not seem appropriate for what is being attempted.




        Contests

        Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly
        opposed to another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to
        do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to
        snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor. This situation
        also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from
        accomplishing a goal—for example, when a monster tries to force open a
        door that an adventurer is holding closed.




        The situation you describe is very similar to this. A contest is an opposed ability check. This does not seem to be a case where an automatic win should be granted to slam the door. There needs to be a chance that the door bounces off of the guy with the ax, and does not knock him back.



        How to adjudicate the contest: oppose the cleric's spell casting DC with the opponent's Athletics(Strength) ability check. The outcome is that either the cleric succeeds, or if the opponent is strong enough, or quick enough, to resist the door slamming in his face. Tie goes to the guy in the doorway




        If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest




        Discuss this with your DM



        This is a case where rulings over rules, a 5e design paradigm, can work to make the game fun. Rewarding innovative use of game features - any DM ought to be on the lookout for that chance. In this case, the DM might offer advantage to the guy with the ax, or to the cleric, depending on how the rest of the situation is set up.



        Rules As Fun-embrace it.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



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        edited 6 hours ago

























        answered 10 hours ago









        KorvinStarmastKorvinStarmast

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